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#21 wurzel

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 10:06 AM

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Yes, unfortunately commercial fishing in our part of the world seems very close to the 3rd worlds poor farmers' practise slashing and burning rainforest for a couple of years of fertile soil.

I would like to see your proof of that statement.
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#22 Bob Jerunkel

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 10:20 AM

late 60's / early seventies crash was due to overfishing after invention of purse seine and triplex winch.


Thank you Jaffa
So we are not all mad.
There is such a thing as over fishing and it can cause fish stocks to collapse.
I'm glad it was you who said that because we are constantly being told by the commercial fishermen who use this site that it cant happen.
Its impossible according to them.
They also say that the best people to manage the fish stocks are commercial fishermen.
Your comment above proves that commercial fishermen haven't got the first clue about fish stock management.
If they did the herrings would never have got over fished.
From what I've read and heared the herring may have recovered but the market for them never did.
Clever bit of management that was.
They say they dont want to be told what to do by scientists but until they become responsible there is no other way.

#23 wurzel

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 10:45 AM

If they did the herrings would never have got over fished.

I'm not so sure they ever were, and a scientist ageed with me reacently,
We had some pretty severe winters during the 60's and early 70's, this was not to the herrings likeing, the milder winters of late are, it had the oppsite effect on cod, So far when ever there is a so called collapse in a stock there is always a link to the enviroment conditions at the time that is totaly ignored, and the blame is conviently heaped on to the commercial fishermen.
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#24 Bob Jerunkel

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 10:52 AM

Bu Jaffa says it was down to purse seines and triple winches or whatever they were. No mention of climate from jaffa.
Do you think the rise in crime is due to climate change too wurzel?

#25 Ken Davison South Wales

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 10:58 AM

Hi binatone

I call it internet jargon. They think of a subject (manly ante commercial) put it in a search engine then post it on this forum, half the time not even reading properly what they have posted. Then they expect you to reply to what they have dug up? Then when you reply to what they have dug up they say you are short sighted or whom are you to comment in such a negative way?


Never been this route and never will.

Basic commonsense should tell you things are changing, a failure to recognise basic changes in your inviroment will without doubt end up causing you grief.

There does seem to be a rebuff of all that does not suit you without considering that so many voices (not just this forum) cannot be 100% wrong.
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#26 Jaffa

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 11:18 AM

Bob, your welcome for the information :) . You can add the 1960's overfishing of Shetlands lobster stocks to your commercials bashing list too if you like ;)

But I agree with Wurzel, that had the commercials been running things the herring would never have been overfished. Hes also right to point out there were proberly environmental factors at play at the same time.

Ask yourself who had most to lose, the day 200 Norwegian purse seiners first appeared over the horizon? It was the Scottish drift and ring net boats, who knew full well what the implications were but had no means to stop it. I doubt the bureaucrats or environmentalists even understood how big a technological leap it was. Since they could not alter fisheries policy one jot, the scots were left with two choices; modernise or go bust.

JRT asks what the "pro commercials" would like to see in the way of management. Well I find what the Shetlanders are currently doing through the Shetland Shellfish Management Organisation, to be very interesting and hopeful :

Shetland Shellfish Management Organisation

and Holistic approaches to fish management

From what I understand they intend to push for management of their waters out to 12 miles and to get whitefish stocks included. Note their tight interlinking with the local fisheries research people too ;) :)

It seems they have just persuaded the Scottish Fishery Protection Agency to assist them with enforcement :) ; the dog wagging the tail at last imho :D

Shetland Times

SFPA will police shellfish zone


29 October, 2005

THE SCOTTISH Fisheries Protection Agency (SFPA) will soon be given additional powers to police fish regulating orders.

Scottish fisheries minister Ross Finnie has now announced that legislation will be brought forward to be in place by summer next year.

The policing of regulation orders has been a controversial issue ever since Shetland was granted the first order in 2000, allowing the islands to manage their own inshore shellfish industry up to a limit of six miles.

A regulating order for the Highlands & Islands is still in the pipeline and likely to go to a public inquiry because fishermen oppose the project, partly due to the lack of policing.

Under a regulating order, fishermen with a track record of working in the particular area will have to register with a management body, in Shetland's case the Shetland Shellfish Management Organisation (SSMO). They set out landing sizes for crab, lobsters and scallops and have the power to close certain fisheries if they feel it is necessary.

However the SSMO has no resources to police these rules, as a result of which Shetland fishermen have on several occasions over the years watched defenceless as large creel fishing boats not registered under the scheme fish the isles' inshore waters.

Mr Finnie has been lobbied heavily on the issue by politicians and fishermen's representatives from along the Scottish coast. Earlier this week, he said that the new powers for the SFPA would be included in the new Police, Public Order and Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill, which was likely to be in force by summer 2006.

Shetland MSP Tavish Scott, who has campaigned on the issue for many years, said that the legislation had initially been planned for 2007 but thankfully had now been brought forward.

"The Shetland Regulating Order pioneered local fisheries management in Shetland, and indeed in Scotland," Mr Scott said.

"I believe that this local management model has much to offer inshore fisheries, but experience has shown that it was being undermined by the policing difficulties the SSMO encountered.

"From next year, with the assistance of the ships and professional staff of the SFPA, the policing issue will have been addressed and the SSMO will then be able to concentrate on demonstrating the benefits of local fisheries management


But if it makes you happy to vent at the commercials I could give you more detail on the lobster overfishing of 4 decades ago ;) :)



Cheers, Chris

BTW, hows @autumn@ going to cope with the notion of fishermen opposing something because of the LACK of decent policing I wonder? :D

Edited by Jaffa, 02 November 2005 - 11:15 AM.

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#27 wurzel

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 11:31 AM

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Bu Jaffa says it was down to purse seines and triple winches or whatever they were. No mention of climate from jaffa.

I think he was quoteing the media perception not the true facts.

What's crime got to do with anything on here, mind you I bet there is a drop in street crime during a very cold spell,

Quote
By the way you didn't answer me how many more fishing vessels we could send into your area when the MPAs are coming?

If they are wanting to do the same metheod of fishing as me then none.
If they could extract some sole quota from the Dutch there is room for a couple of bigger boats further off.
more to the point were are you anglers going to fish?
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#28 wurzel

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 12:46 PM

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As usual anglers will go fishing where they are allowed to fish. Maybe even within the new MPAs? That could be some extremely nice ponds to fish when the fishing vessels are out. But anglers would need to push more and fund their organisations and campaigners adequately to see this become true.

So you don't think anglers should be included then?
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#29 doshkadog

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 12:48 PM

You do not have to catch the last fish, you only have to reduce the stock to below the sustainable gene pool size and the fish will be come inbread retards and die out (to put it basically)
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#30 wurzel

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 01:13 PM

You do not have to catch the last fish, you only have to reduce the stock to below the sustainable gene pool size and the fish will be come inbread retards and die out (to put it basically)

Is that what happened to the ichthyosaur, do you think that if green peace had been about they would have been able to saved them?

Quote
Maybe because there is no need to, that anglers impact on sea fishstocks is non-significant?

well my impact on fishstocks are very insignificent.
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