Blinders

[wurzel]

Hello Big Cod and Winter

 

Quote

 

joe public really knew what really went on at sea they would hound you off this forum for sure they are the facts my friend.

 

You don't know the real facts or wish to know, you are typical Whitby rumor monguls, I've never known a place to equal it.

 

 

As Binatone says, if you knew anthing about the job, the last thing you need in the cod end is a tyre or a sheet of sacking.

 

I can not say binders have never been used by UK fishermen, I can say I 've never met any one who's admitted to it nor have I seen or heard of any UK vessels useing one or landing large quantities of undersized fish.

you never hear of any UK boats being arrested and being escorted back to port with undersized fish aboard . In Harwich its a regular accurance with the foriegn beamers, they have plenty of quota and a ready market for small soles, quite often it's sold as stocker (cash) for the crew, they think it's normal and don't consider any wrong doing.

 

Landing of undersized fish and the use of binders is not an issue concerning the UK fleet , don't tar us with the same brush.

[The doctor]

you are typical Whitby rumor monguls

 

I think you'll find the phrase is 'Rumour Mongers', or did you intend to call Whitby folk Monguls.

 

Generally, I think its about time people using this forum began to show a bit of decorum, if you can't make an arguement without resorting to childish name calling, then its probably best if you keep quiet. Everyone is entitled to have an opinion, whether thats based on personal experience, 2nd or 3rd hand information or pure speculation, somewhere there will be an element of truth. To say that anyone who has an opposing view doesn't know what they are talking about, doesn't mean to say they cannot post their views, after all we live in a democratic state, not a fascist republic.

 

Now to the actual thread; The term blinder can be applied (I think) to any device that can reduce the overall efficiency of the meshes within a trawl (beam or otter), it doesn't have to be a small mesh net. it can be (as used from time to time) ropes, these do have a similar effect. It depends alot on the fishery, here in the UK there is no market for undersized fish, however, ropes have been used in the past to reduce the quantity of just sized fish escaping through panels, similarly the positioning of square mesh panels at the bottom of the trawl significantly negates the positive benefits (allowing juvenile fish to escape). Now we can argue until we are blue in the face and I'm sure that Wurzel and Binatone etc. will say such practices were/are not employed by UK fishermen and that its Johnny Foreigner. However, its all the same end result, increased discards, illegal fishing practices, and generally carried out by a few who give the majority a bad name.

 

With regard to the vessel that was caught, a dutch beamer, and its contents, anyone who has eaten fish in the Netherlands will know that they do prefer a couple of small sole on a plate rather than one big one, the Italians are the same (in fact so are the Spanish and to a lesser degree the Portugeuse). In order to get away from this, national attitudes to eating fish have to be changed. To put this into perspective, I carried out a trawl survey recently (using 80mm rock hopper gear from a 17m stern trawler), we caught a range of species across a wide range of sizes, many of which were below MLS.

 

Looking at the MLS for certain species (24cm Dover sole, 28cm Whiting, 36cm cod and 36cm bass), I had stomach analysis to carry out on a range of sizes for all these species all of which were in spawning condition. Based on these analyses the following size ranges and gonad maturity were determined;

 

Dover sole (Solea solea) 10cm to 15cm; no developed gonads, 16cm to 20cm; no developed gonads, 21cm to 25cm; no developed gonads, 26cm to 28cm; partially developed gonads but not considered viable, 29cm to 31cm; developed gonads but of low yield (especially below 30cm), 31cm and above ripe gonads. The vast majority were females (30:1).

 

Whiting (Merlangius merlangus)10cm to 15cm; no developed gonads, 16cm to 20cm; no developed gonads, 21cm to 25cm; no developed gonads, 26cm to 30cm; poorly developed gonads, although some at 30cm showing maturation, 31cm to 35cm mature gonads but of low yield below 32cm, 36cm and above ripe gonads. The vast majority were females (45:1).

 

Cod (Gadus morhua) 10cm to 15cm; no developed gonads, 16cm to 20cm; no developed gonads, 21cm to 25cm; no developed gonads, 26cm to 30cm; poorly developed gonads, but not considered viable, 31cm to 35cm mature gonads but of low yield, 36cm and above ripe gonads. The majority were females (12:1).

 

Bass (Dicentrarchus labrax) 20cm to 27cm; no developed gonads, 36cm to 41cm; poorly developed gonads, but not considered viable, 47cm to 62cm; ripe gonads, The majority of fish above 36cm were females (8:1).

 

I'd be interested to see how such an evaluation compares with Wurzels fish, a there may well be a bias during geographic location of this survey area (53. 48N 0. 02W) and linked to water temp.

 

One thing this demonstrates is that we are still harvesting fish at a size by which they have not had an opportunity to spawn, its OK to reduce effort, but without technical measures aimed at rebuilding stock structure (not just biomass), the prolonged impacts on fish stocks, not least the effect on the commercial and recreational fishing industries, will continue for quite a few years to come.

 

For what its worth, I think the fines imposed on the Dutch beamer show that we still treat Johnny foreigner lighter than we do our own fishermen, not to say that we should lower our penalty structure. I would have thought the best way to treat regulation breaches by non - UK vessels is to say they have forfiet their right to fish within our territiorial waters, conficate his gear and send him packing, we have to do something to stop sunset clauses and historical rights afforded to non - UK vessels.

 

 

Cheers

 

 

Doc

[Guest @Winter@]

Undersized fish - Perhaps not. I will admit that I have not once heared of anyone landing undersized fish. Perhaps it's the lack of a market.

 

Blinders to ensure no fish just on the leagl size slip through the mesh ? The word on the grapevine is in certain areas they are utilised by members of the UK fleet. No way of proving it unless one of our boys get caught that much is definate and I suppose who would be stupid enough to stick their hand up and say yes we use Blinders. Just as I have no proof of their utilaisation you have no proof other than your word that they arent. I guess you can rely on people accepting your word based on your experience and if they choose to do so then thats fair play. But with so many cases coming into court highlighting lies told by UK fishermen, it might well be the wrong thing to do but you really shouldnt be(and probably arent) surprised that you are being tarred with the same brush. The people I talk to regulally are trusted friends and neighbours who have nothing to gain or loose from discussing such issues with me - I trust what they say, and I see that as fair play too. Another case of agreeing to disagree I think

Edited March 12, 2006 by @Winter@

[JB]

As Binatone says, if you knew anthing about the job, the last thing you need in the cod end is a tyre or a sheet of sacking.

 

I can not say binders have never been used by UK fishermen, I can say I 've never met any one who's admitted to it nor have I seen or heard of any UK vessels useing one or landing large quantities of undersized fish.

you never hear of any UK boats being arrested and being escorted back to port with undersized fish aboard . In Harwich its a regular accurance with the foriegn beamers, they have plenty of quota and a ready market for small soles, quite often it's sold as stocker (cash) for the crew, they think it's normal and don't consider any wrong doing.

 

Landing of undersized fish and the use of binders is not an issue concerning the UK fleet , don't tar us with the same brush.

For all of my working life I have only ever worked at sea. I have experience of trawling off the Yorkshire coast going back to the mid sixties. I have never used a blinder when trawling, nor have I ever seen anyone else use one. I think it is highly unlikely that any white fish trawler that has worked from the Yorkshire coast has ever used one.

 

Anyone who knows anything about white fish trawl nets will tell you that it is complete rubbish about putting sacks or tyres in cod ends as a form of blinders.

 

I am not standing up for anyone. I am just standing up for the truth.

 

JB

[wurzel]

Hello Doc

 

Quote

I'd be interested to see how such an evaluation compares with Wurzels fish, a there may well be a bias during geographic location of this survey area (53. 48N 0. 02W) and linked to water temp.

 

Contact Andy Revell at CEFAS

[Guest @Winter@]

Hello John.

 

As a law abiding citizen you probably would not have dreamt of utilising a blinder but could you refresh my memory of the date you last owned a trawler. If my guess is right times were a little easier in the not too distant passed and you would more than likely sail away from small fish rather than into them knowing that better money could be made away from the tids. Unfortunately, although bigger fish still means more money their abundance has diminished making the tids a more profitable option.

 

I would give you the same reply as I gave wurzel a little earlier. The main part being :

 

I believe very different to be true now. Just as you speak as an x trawlerman so do three of my close neighbours and all in more recent times to yourself although that is of little significance here. There is no way of proving right or wrong in this case and we should agree to disagree about there use untill supporting evidence of one or the other argument can be brought to the debate.

[big_cod]

edited to remove the instances where big_cod was calling others liars by name or otherwise insulting folks.

 

Oops - nothing left after removing that.

 

Newt

[Norm B]

Undersized fish - Perhaps not. I will admit that I have not once heared of anyone landing undersized fish. Perhaps it's the lack of a market.

 

Blinders to ensure no fish just on the leagl size slip through the mesh ? The word on the grapevine is in certain areas they are utilised by members of the UK fleet. No way of proving it unless one of our boys get caught that much is definate and I suppose who would be stupid enough to stick their hand up and say yes we use Blinders. Just as I have no proof of their utilaisation you have no proof other than your word that they arent. I guess you can rely on people accepting your word based on your experience and if they choose to do so then thats fair play. But with so many cases coming into court highlighting lies told by UK fishermen, it might well be the wrong thing to do but you really shouldnt be(and probably arent) surprised that you are being tarred with the same brush. The people I talk to regulally are trusted friends and neighbours who have nothing to gain or loose from discussing such issues with me - I trust what they say, and I see that as fair play too. Another case of agreeing to disagree I think

There is definately a market for small fish on the continent. In most markets the fish are arranged in boxes of different sized fish at diferent prices and some are obviously undersize but they are publicly on sale, nobody gets charged. If you have a boulibasse, fish soup, in a restaurant it consists of undersize fish, blatently sold without any repercussions. The continentals have a ready market for undersize fish and nobody gets prosecuted for either catching them, selling them, or buying them. So much for EU members states policing themselves.

[JB]

i myself are no expert but jb is making a point which he knows is tottally wrong blinders have been used many many times and he knows it,

A MESSAGE FOR ALL MEMBERS OF THE FORUM:

 

comment in reply to deleted content also removed. Newt

 

I have no intentions of entering into any ‘debates’ with Winter or Big Cod at this moment. However, for other readers who may believe all that the Kilpatricks have to say, please note that I have two things that neither of these two men have: extensive experience within the commercial fishing industry... and integrity.

 

John Brennan

Edited March 12, 2006 by Newt

[Guest binatone]

Binitone [some stuff edited] you might kid people on this forum that blinders are just a fairy tale who have had no insight into trawling, its common knowledge that chuck a sack into the codend of a normal trawl and small fish build up around the sack or blinder then more and more build up (who said anything about a beam trawler) there you go again off a tangents blinders were regulary sown in not so much nowadays because the navy arent to far away [Edited - keep personal insults off this forum. John S] its the famous word bulk whats killed the fishing industry of the northeast coast and blinders played a big part in it but did joe public know about this practice did he hell to be honest if joe public really knew what really went on at sea they would hound you off this forum for sure they are the facts my friend.

Leon.

How’s life in the bunker? Hope you’re comfortable because you could be there for a while yet.

Big cod.

You asked me why I mentioned beam trawlers. I was referring to the original posting submitted by Leon before his hastily retreat to his underground fallout shelter. I.e. I thought we where discussing a Dutch beam trawler?

I can understand you not believing a word I say because of your stance on who I am. But come on now big cod, to say that wurzel is ignorant to the ways of a modern day trawl and to say that jb is not telling the truth on this subject leaves me gasping for breath.

I will say again, I have spent the best part of 30 years working the North Sea and have never used a blinder or know of anyone who has.

I do agree with your comment on using tyres for blinders, therefore somebody’s neighbours must have got it wrong.

You say that blinders have played a big part in the killing of the fishing industry off the north east coast. In fact you go on to say that if Joe public knew what went on at sea they would hound me (binatone) off this forum.

I ask you again what is your problem with commercial fishermen from your own town.

What has commercial fisherman ever done to you to make you react and try and insight

Hatred like you are doing?

Winter

I do not know what comments big cod made before the administrators decided to edit them?

I have never asked the administrators to remove or edit anything that has been said on here.

I have read through my comments again that you kindly highlighted in red and can only say that I admire my own restraint considering the bombardment of accusations that where coming my way from you and big cod.

Still if I offended you I apologise.

Edited March 12, 2006 by binatone