back leads

[Dick Dastardly]

Me and Den have often not seen eye to eye on carp issues over the years.But what he has wrote on this subject is exactly what I would have wrote my self.

 

The "try it and see what actualy happens" attitude doesnt seem to exist with a lot of modern day carpers.I was amazed at how much of a "revelation" many thought the Korda vidios were! Ok not all may have had the same oportunities as me (through my diving) to see these things or understand how things act underwater but as Den rightly says a lot of things can be tried in the margins or your bath tub for christs sake!

 

Rob there are some materials which do "weigh" considerably less in water (concrete is a good example as any one who has hauled up a concrete"mud weight" will know.Concretes density is lower than waters) lead isnt greatly affected due to its density being higher than the waters.

 

The physics of how objects behave underwater are quite complex.That said I honestly feel that as anglers we need only to have an understanding of the basics.

 

A point was made re fixed and running leads.I can tell you that unless you are using an extremely larege lead very close in and in a perfectly straight line a running lead rig wont run much at all with out causing resistance.Not a fishing observation but a fact learned by pulling on under water ropes via anchor points!

 

Yes I agree,after many hours spent observing carp (not in aquariums) feeding that they can indeed pick up a bait without there being an indication at the rod end........this for me though justifies the need for self hooking/pricking rigs.You soon get an indiction when the fish is hooked/pricked.

 

At this point I will say that all my observations have been made on waters that dont recieve tremendous angling pressure.Also to qualify that statement I class a pressured water as one where the fish are being caught regularly not just lots of anglers fishing it.

 

I have NEVER seen a fish pick up a bait,be hooked/pricked and NOT run like many claim does happen.Incidently almost all of the "top carping writers" I have discussed this and similar with havnt actually SEEN it either! its just that they know this happens!! and the ones who have? well Im to polite to call them liars!

 

I think a lot of the "advanced" behaviour atributed to carp has come about due to anglers imagination rather than a learning process caused by angling pressure.

 

When Ive put hooking/pricking I do this as many will challenge this idea by saying surely carp suck in loads of sharp things whilst they are feeding? Yes as anyone who has watched them will confirm...but they try and eject them by either spitting them out or ejecting through the gills (you would think if they were that bright the later option wouldnt be the case due to potential damage) What IMO scares them is the fact they cant eject it easily,this results in them panicing and running.If you analyse all of the rigs post "twitcher hitting" days they all (intentionally or not , realised at the time or not) created this effect.

 

Modern rigs where thought is given to the actual "mechanics" of how the hook behaves when ejected strive to increase the chance/probability of the prick/hook up.Nothing really to do with getting the carp to pick up the bait in the first place but all to do with ensuring that if it is the fish will be hooked.

 

Getting back to indication,ideally an ultra tight line will improve the bite detection.Trouble being is that an ultra tight line close to the bait will stop it being picked up in the first place! Here back leads from a presentation/indication point come into there own.The heavier both the rig and back lead weight the tighter you can get the line.

 

The points re avoiding line bites and tangles when playing a fish close in whilst using a multi rod set up are of course true but realy just a bonus.

 

Some situations like margin fishing for fish other then carp I do prefer to use slack lines but like Den says this is only possible if there is no under tow.With slack lines at any distance you are in effect just getting a delayed indication of a bite and also as Den says defeating the whole point of semi fixed self pricking/hooking systems.

 

So if I feel like this why do I still fish traditionally (ie free running rigs and no back leads with ultra light bobbins) for other specimen fish? Mainly because Ive never felt the need to change as Ive been happy with my results and also deep down because I know that despite the theory my running rigs are most likely acting in much the same (fixed) way as a carp rig any way.I believe there are other factors in play with such as bream etc or even pike which hinge on "change of resistance" rather than resistance,but thats another post!

 

Lastly Peter,if you still believe that fish are picking up your bait without them ending up on the bank,indication or not then really take a closer look at your set up.How many of you out there who suffer (or believe they do) own and use a hook sharpener...............................simple as that!?

[Newt]

How many of you out there who suffer (or believe they do) own and use a hook sharpener...............................simple as that!?

 

Budgie - I still use a hook sharpener on the few lures that have treble hooks but I have never been able to approach the sharpness of a chemical sharpened hook right out of the package. These days, if it ain't sharp enough, I change it.

[peter mccue]

Me and Den have often not seen eye to eye on carp issues over the years.But what he has wrote on this subject is exactly what I would have wrote my self.

 

.......

 

Lastly Peter,if you still believe that fish are picking up your bait without them ending up on the bank,indication or not then really take a closer look at your set up.How many of you out there who suffer (or believe they do) own and use a hook sharpener...............................simple as that!?

 

To be honest Budgie, I don't believe any rig comes close to a 100% pick up success, but I quite agree that a needle sharp hook is a prerequisite for any rig in whatever form it comes.

 

If I can just pick up on your point about running rigs behaving like fixed rigs anyway, at distance I would agree, however margin fishing or close range fishing is a different story. Wide run rings, light leads, & small but strong hooks that are very sticky, often produce much slower runs than a fixed lead. In fact if you go the whole hog & move back 20yrs or so, a paternoster style run rig with a long hair produces some lovely leisurely takes. As you point out forget rod pods, seperate bank sticks pointing at the bait often with the tips below the water is required.

 

Of course if you're fishing at distance on waters where runs are at a premium with long gaps in between, then I would opt for a well thought out bolt rig also, but I do a lot of stalking & close in work, so the greater delicacy & info receiving that you get from a run rig suits me far better. You can only judge the success of your set up by other peoples results & I find the ubiquitous bolt rig out of its depth for short range fishing on short intense sessions.

 

Incidentally, I've never been able to match the 'stickiness' of Raptor T6's using a sharpener, so I much prefer to replace the hook if there's any doubt at all. I've no doubt this is one of my shortfalls, so I'm interested if you can describe the technique it could save me a fortune on hooks!

[Dick Dastardly]

Interesting reply Peter.Yes I agree it is doubtfull that any present rig is 100% on the pricking/hooking point,but I believe it is what we should strive for.As once again you say though you do have to compare your results with others around you.Also what works for me on my waters may not on yours but worth giving a go!

 

Peter and Newt,I often hear the argument that chemicaly sharpened (CS) hooks are sharp enough out of the packet.I agree that some are but some are not! The real rub though is you both say that you change your CS hooks whenever they become blunt,without being rude I bet you dont! Let me explain what I mean.Every time I rebait I do the "thumb nail" test on my hook (just in case you do not know what I mean by this,I hold the hook between finger and thumb with the point facing down and outwards,I place the point on the thumb nail of my other hand and pull the hook back towards me,If it just skids across the nail it aint sharp it should dig in straight away with minimum pressure.Give it a go with some of your hooks tonight) if "blunt" I touch it up with my sharpener.

 

Now we come to the reason most people dont use sharpeners......thats because they cant! Im one as well who with a stone or file just blunts the hook even more! The type I use is a "Diamond E Z lap" it has a thin blade with a groove running up one side.I take the hook and hold it in my thumb and forefinger with the point facing up and out.With the hooksharpner in my other hand I make three upward strokes one the front and one on each side of the hook point.It really is easy.

 

Getting back to my initial "doubt" about your claims to replace "blunt" hooks.Be honest with your selfs now with your hooks how many times would you check them to find they arnt as sharp as the thumb nail test would show but you think "Ah well they are still pretty sharp" I wont bother changing it yet"eh? With the hook sharpener taking seconds this never happens.

 

Next time we are together on the bank please ask me to show you,in fact give you a go! once tried I know few people who havnt been sold on them.

[poledark]

Deviating very slightly from backleads, it is incredible the number of carpers who are happy to hook their hook over one of the rod rings and fold the rod up into a carryall.

 

Just one tiny touch on the rod ring and the hook is blunted............................

 

I used to give one simple bit of advice on nearly all questions relating to fishing....SHARP HOOKS....SHARP HOOKS....SHARP HOOKS

 

Den

Edited June 5, 2006 by poledark

[peter mccue]

Budgie.

 

Yes you're probably right, but I am very diligent when it comes to hooks. However, you've convinced me to try a sharpener again, so a 'Diamond E Z lap' it is!