Diabolos

Norrie Stay tight-lipped.

Might be a feature on this very place in the forthcoming 'Sea Angler'? There again, they might have lost it!! S

Hi Sam Yes, I agree that the pro-rig booms were a mainstay ‘up’ boom but they were also very good for uptide multiple hauling with the tide running…give it a try. I too use standard running ledger booms (home-made better than any of the shop-bought jobbies), for fun fishing for single fish. I also regularly use a 3-up rig boom rig with 200mm wire booms that have small leads moulded around the stems. This is ensures that all three hooks pin firmly to the seabed in tide without the need for a massive bow. It is particularly good for whiting, dabs, dogs, plaice, codling and soles. Ian, I agree that boat/warp noise is an attraction to mostly cartilaginous species…particularly spotty dogs. Albest - S

Hi Davy Aye, truth to tell, international anglers are probably the most willing learners of all.

Hi Dave…and winding back a bit There’s something about egg-sucking and granny that a cheekier poster might be tempted to say by way of an appropriate response...but I am not the cheeky sort!!! Safe to say, one thinks, that the majority of regular anglers (and skippers too, I hope), well know that uptiding is most effective when the tide is running, and that switching to downtide methods is the standard on static neaps, or when the tide slows, or over slack water. Please restore my faith in man and fish-kind by confirming this is so. In the Herne Bay example instance, spreaders ripped the ankles off the alternatives when the tide was at its strongest!!! One way the method was controlled fished over that couple of days was to use a grip-lead fished straight over the side. There is of course, a bit more to it than simply that, but just to let you know that ‘cut & dried’ in the strong flow – uptide/slack – downtide, sense this is not. Different venues my friend, often call for different tactics and a bit of an open mind. Albest - S

Dave Godwin’s uptide braid method which utilises light tackle and light leads is lovely in a touchy-feely sense when conditions and space allow it to be practised. It is in essence a sporting method that allows the angler to enjoy the fish’s every kick, wiggle and turn. It is also a method requiring some skill and restraint on the part of the angler in order to win the fish that he hooks. This light tackle game is not always practical however, and something that has been missed all through the previous thread is ‘what does the damage here, doesn’t necessarily mean it’ll eclipse other methods there’. Uptiding with braid is not only about spinning rods and 2oz leads. I stated on the previous thread that ‘proper’ uptiding with braid shares almost exactly the same methodology as the time-honoured mono method. The differences are that a fixed spool is much more user-friendly and in other ways advantageous for casting with braid, because it eliminates birds nests and biting problems in the first instance, along with other stuff that would take too long to go into in a already over-long post. The other key is to use a heavier lead than normal, which in turn makes positioning the end-tackle clear of other lines, and more-or-less exactly where you want it a whole lot easier. What I will concede to the likes of Steve and Sam is that this uptide braid method is one that I tend to use in competitions with multiple hook rigs when targeting double and treble shots of fish – the rigs can be either 3-down or 3-up. I do however use it for tope, bass, hounds and rays and it works perfectly well. The only thing I will say on the downside of the fixed spool is that playing bigger fish can be hard work as the rod does require to be pumped…but it is just something that I have adjusted to and accepted. The vibe I am getting loud and clear is that those shouting loudest on the previous thread do not seem to be particularly well-travelled in there fishing. By that I respectfully mean that many of the protagonists seem to regularly fish in one set area. This is not a criticism of them, but it must be understood that what works in one area doesn’t necessarily work best everywhere else. I am also hearing things like - “I have been uptiding for 30 years, and know what I am talking about!” Well, in my experience there are plenty of people out there who have fished a particular way for many years. In so doing, many have unwittingly fallen foul of the one-way blinkers, while a great many others have simply cultivated bad habits for years. Sorry, but I see it all the time, and the old-timers are the worst offenders by a country mile! I am not age-ist however, and joking aside, what I am getting at is that it is never wise to dismiss anything in fishing…be that the merits of uptiding, or the venue/area-specific effectiveness of the alternative methods of fishing. Sam said “Uptiding is the best method to fish from large packed boats in less than 100 feet of water”. I would suggest that it is a top, and often the best method at anchor in depths of a bit less than 100 feet, but it is not always the ‘best’ method for such venues. I say this having fished every major UK sea angling port (including Bradwell) and a great many more besides. By way of an example: I was fishing an international boat competition in Herne Bay many moons ago. We had a strong and experienced team who excelled in the uptide discipline. Herne Bay is a shallow water venue; the event took place in October; with large numbers of whiting expected to be the target specie. The whiting were there in numbers right enough: in practise our anglers were hammering out silly numbers of the things by fishing three-hook boom rigs uptide, and double-patting. Fish were on the baits as soon as the rig locked in the bottom, and it was a simple case of baiting up the second rig and winding in as fast as possible to ensure the maximum number of whiting possible in the allotted time…organised and efficient speed-fishing if you like. We thought we had the game sussed, and could see no way catching fish quicker. After all, as part of our tactical build-up, we had extensively experimented with three-down running rigs, and simple three up paternosters with the famous Cox & Rawle white ‘attractor’ booms (some of you will know what I am on about). These performed okay, with a measure of success at differing stages of the tide, but nothing came close to matching the sheer efficiency of numbers that the uptide method delivered. So, we went into the match stuck on uptiding and confident of winning another Home International Championships. Things started out okay in the match proper, but after a couple of hours the England lads pulled out Herne Bay spreaders and went ballistic on fish numbers: fishing the things straight over the side and catching multiple whiting about three times as fast as we could do uptide. If you have never seen a ‘proper’ spreader before I’ll describe it as a antique-looking wire contraption with double boom arms on the bottom, and a single boom above a further swivelled length of wire in the middle. It is not a fixed wire arrangement, and part of its effectiveness, we know now, lies in the thing’s inherent ability to provide subtle movements…but the spreader method is for another time. Anyway, the upshot is that England won the event by a street and I now own hundreds of ‘proper’ bloody spreaders! Once the England anglers twigged that speaders were murdering whiting at lightning speed, they discarded uptiding altogether and blew the other teams clean away. The others -me included - to their utter dismay, didn’t have spreaders, and, if the truth be told, at that time we didn’t know the vitally important ins and outs of fishing them properly. Most of what Sam says is bob-on with regard to uptiding and the numerous offshoot branches of boat-casting that could be described and debated for ever more. In finishing I would like to say that there is a lot of good and diverse fishing knowledge (uptide, downtide, high tide), being batted about between posts on this forum; this can be absorbed or dismissed as pleases individuals, but cheap derision and unqualified nonsense would seem to help nobody. See ya - S

Hi Steve Just winding back to your reply on page 2 of this thread…good response. You differentiate between uptiding and boat-casting in much the same way as I do. We have already said that there are many different faucets of the boat-casting discipline; you knowingly highlighted one of my favourite ploys, the cross-tide, plain lead method which can be brilliant for plaice etc. I also often opt to sling a grip-lead straight down-the-tide, a tactic which can be very effective for tope, rays and dogs (if you need to catch them). There are of course other loosely categorised offshoots: At various Irish and Scottish venues casting 100 – 200g pirks from a drifting boat is particularly effective for codling, and I would also pigeonhole the likes of this as boat-casting in the same way as you might apply the term to casting a wedge or plug in the estuary shallows for bass. As someone who works hard at fishing and who is meticulous about it, I fully understand the frustrations with some stuff that gets posted. It takes all sorts however at all the various experience levels, and where possible, I usually just try and help out a little by telling it like it is. None of us is ever going to satisfy everybody with our takes, and none is us is ever going to be completely right because there few nailed on rights and wrongs in fishing…that’s part of the beauty of it I suppose. Thanks too for the PM Steve. If we can possibly arrange that day’s fishing then I would look forward to it. The only trouble I have right now is that the calendar is clogged right up until after the World Boat Championships in October. Speak soon - Steve

Hi Steve I think you deserve great credit for sticking up for those that you believe heralded the revolution in UK boat fishing, and as far as I am concerned, you are certainly entitled to you your opinions…you will get nothing but respect from me on that score. I will even concur with you to a point. And before going any deeper into this, please understand that any statement made was no dig at those you leap to defend. Now a message to both Summer and yourself…uptiding is most definitely not the most successful method of boat fishing and it never will be – fact. Another fact: It is a good and very successful method for certain species, in certain areas, in certain circumstances, but the bigger picture is it accounts for perhaps 5% of boat catches countywide. Again I will state that I have the utmost respect for Bob Cox and John Rawle for that matter, among many forward-thinking boat anglers/skippers of their era like Geordie Dickinson, but these guys DID NOT invent the so-called uptide method. As previously alluded, the method was developed in Dutch and Belgian waters many years before it was ever publicised in the UK angling press. Try telling anglers from these countries that our guys invented the method and the collective laughter you have you running off in horrible embarrassment. Now let me ask you a question: What is uptiding and what is boat-casting? Be careful how you answer because no-one in England invented the method of using a long rod to cast a wired lead away from an anchored boat into the path of passing fish. Steve, who told you can’t feel the weight hit bottom when using a fixed spool? Come on mate that just isn’t true. If it was I’d have slung my big fixed spools over the side long ago, as I wouldn’t be able to make the method count as I like to think that I regularly manage to. Steve it is correct to say that it would take reams of pages to explain the ins and outs of the various uptide methods, and I am prepared to enter into discussing those. However, I do it just about every month in various quarters and can see no benefit in things spiralling into a mish-mashy argument. If you want to debate matters than I will deal only in facts rather than fiction. As for uptiding in its purest form? That sounds like a ‘fend off’ for failure to understand the simplicity of the method, and the various applicable guises. And make no mistake, new or old the principles remain, with simplicity at the very heart of this method of fishing. Remember the original Daiwa Sea Hunter Uptide rods, and the 1986 Daiwa backed video, ‘Offshore Boat Fishing with Bob Cox’? I do, very well, and if Bob Cox gave us anything, it was concise access to an embryonic UK method and the rods with which to best exploit it. I thank him for this because he certainly greatly influenced the way I fish when the winning requirement is to switch from downtiding etc. I have also been known to fight his corner when stalwart downtiders-at-all-costs have sought to take the p**s out of his efforts and endeavours which did much to advance UK boat angling. One day it would be good to go fishing with Bob and bat thoughts and ideas back and forth re the state of uptide play today etc…that I think, would be a feature that many people would like to read, and one that I would enjoy writing. Be good Steve. Steve Souter

Guys I have resisted the urge not to chip in for long enough on the braid being no good for uptiding thing. Frankly, some of the statements have me tearing my hair out and make me want to yell “FLICKIN’ HOGWASH!!!!” Braid is magic for uptiding particularly in very fast flowing waters, and further, on charter boats where space is tight. There are however several core tackle adjustments that have to be made, and equally, the reasons for them must be clearly understood. There is no doubt that a large fixed spool is the best way to cast with braid, simply to remove the likelihood of braid-bite and birds nests. Another huge plus in switching to a fixed spool for uptiding is that the line spills off a static spool about five times as quickly as it can from even a fast running drum spool of a multiplier. Why is this any advantage? Because in fast tides you want your lead on the bottom and biting as soon as possible…super-fast line-spill is the best way of ensuring this can happen. With a mono on a multiplier, your standard 6 oz grip will always trundle a considerable way downtide before digging in. Now it could be argued that this can be countered somewhat by casting further uptide and more parallel to the boat, but this is not the ideal solution because of the angle of line bow and competition for space which is a nightmare on charter boats (especially from amidships positions), because as soon as one person winds in and casts out again, they are sure to be casting into other anglers’ bow…problems, problems, problems. The best option is to use braid on a fixed spool and to use a much heavier lead that you might otherwise do when confronted with few complications from other anglers, and when there are no problems of limited space in which to operate. Employing this braid/fixed spool/heavy lead set-up means that you can get away with casting more across-the-tide instead of up it, because that heavy lead, it won’t wander far from where it meets the seafloor given the speed that the braid mainline whizzes from the static spool; it also means that you are fishing a fairly short line to the terminal tackle and a drastically reduced bow. (By heavy lead: think 250 – 300g or 8 – 10 oz) Mono is fine on small boats where space and overcrowding are not pressing issues, but trust me, every International UK boat angler worth his salt has now converted to fixed spool uptiding for the reasons set out above. I fish and compete all over the place, working from charter and small boats, and having adjusted to braids for boat-casting, and having repeatedly benefited from what they offer me, I do not think I will ever again revert to mono for uptiding purposes. Going slightly off track…the fixed spool offers big casting benefits too because there are still ports and skippers that are less than warm to the uptide method, and where casting from inside the boat or from over the opposite side, is not permitted. Where underarm casting is the only option, a fixed spool will more than double the distance of a multiplier with half the effort, simply because of the unchecked line flow from the static spool. In this instance, multiplier distance is largely annihilated to a stuttering short plop because the terminal tackle is towing against a revolving spool loaded with comparatively thick line. Sam your old man was something of a UK pioneer in his day, but methods evolve and improve, and the variations and styles of uptiding widely practiced today have changed a bit from 20 odd years ago. Since its inception in northern Europe (Belgium & Holland) some 12 years before BC & JR began to bring it to UK attention, uptiding/boat-casting has moved on. And it is currently going through another metamorphosis – to braid or not to braid? - that may eventually do much to bolster its 21st century case. In a previous post someone said that mono holds water on its surface, whereas braid doesn’t: this is true to an extent but some coated/fused braids display very noticeable water adhesion, while certain other poor quality braids also soak water up like a sponge. Think things through and give braid a fair shot before leaping in to dismiss it. There was a time when I would probably have blindly fired anti-braid salvos where uptiding was concerned. However, time-served experience is a most wonderful thing. I’ll now apologise for crawling out of the woodwork and about-turn back into the ether, holding my tongue all the way. S

Okay Dan, I'll see if Happy Dude can get us afloat first. Then, we can look at a prospective date. Can you do mid' week? S

Spoil-sport! How 'bout a fiver? S

No problem Jeepster...if there's a suitable gap in each others schedules, then lets get it sorted. S

Hi Jeepster I tend to work with 'North one' (formerly 'Chrysalis Television'), who do 'Tight Lines' and 'Fish O Mania' for SKY. Would be good to have a natter some time though. S

We have a few such rigs Gillies dear, but I'm afraid they don't work so well when one is pished, or turns up with the diddy head on!!! Need to speak to you soon about that extra trip up to your part of the world. S

Sounds like a good idea to me Dan. I am in the process of organising some sea fishing films for SKY during June and July, so we could even put you on the telly. Would have to make it interesting though...how about we both chuck £1000 in the middle of the boat, and the winner takes all? I'll even buy you a sporting fish supper afterwards. I could also get MD to do the pix so that we can turn it into an interesting 'Sea Angler' piece. If shy, then PM me. SS

Don't be silly Shaun! You already know what it takes to be a winner, and what works better than anything else on east coast cod venues. Guard against getting sucked in by madcap tackle, and leave the rig lunacy to the opposition. Remember it is the angler who catches the fish not the tackle. S

I should probably take this opportunity to apologise to dyed-in-the-wool IO-Wighties, and sandalised Beardies Rod Whitewood, Alan Bravery, Richard Russell & George Bernowicz. These are smashing guys would probably be allowed to work with children. Sorrrrrrrrry lads!

Les That's wierdy beardies with a penchant for white socks and sandals!!! Home to some good anglers however, and there's always lots of lovely dogfish afloat. Satanas

Skip Call Mike Taylor @ UK Hooks, tel: 01983 868687...he's your boy. SS

Just tell the flickin world, why don't you Les!!! And yes, you may borrow my 'bait-rapists' insult!

'Cornish Lure Company' now trading as 'PPS Moulds', tel: 0870 7500319. These moulds are poor copies of the German 'Hakuma' moulds (not Okuma, Alan),which are easy to find if you pop a Google search. I also understand that Old Mouldy does the stainless eyelets that you need at a fraction of the cost. S

Guys & Les This is indeed a golden haddock. Chris the fishmonger brought one along to the house a couple of weeks ago to wave at me. He had picked it up in the local fish market, and despite handling tens of thousands of haddies in his time, it was the first one he had ever seen. Apparently the Faroeese and Shetland boats have been picking these up in increasing numbers of late. Could it be that the north coast is the place to catch one of these rarest of freaky fish? Wish I could get one on a feature shoot for the mag... Stevie

Bill You have mail. Stevie

Such has been rumoured, Winter.

Sulter I thought SA did expansive Scottish features just about every month? And, what horrible reports are you talking about? - Be careful. SS