Ryford

Brian, Not really my opinion but your response does show where coastal councils and the RDAs see as sustainable investment areas. Commercial fishing and sea angling to some extent, has been talking itself into an early grave for so long without any clear idea of where both industries are heading that its hardly surprising. The real sad part of it for me as not only an angler, put also a rate payer, is how the councils contribute to inshore fishery management via the SFCs on the one hand, yet fail to make the link between a healthy marine environment and stocks as a basis for sustainable development on the other. I suppose that getting a grant to build a new or convert under utilised harbour area into a leisure marina is simply the easy option. Whitby is not unique in this respect and you only have to look at any coastal community with a port of any description to see where its all heading. andyR

Whitby would probably be better off financially if it had a marina full of charter boats, not to mention hotels full of anglers on the guzzle twelve months of the year. A better chance of UK fish ending up on UK dinner tables if nothing else.

Wurzel, The Teign has been systematically trawled out of sight every year for the last four or five prior to the Flounder Festival. The recreational flounder fishery has been catch and release for twenty odd years at least to my knowledge and as we all know, they are very robust and return extremly well. The MLS for the competition is also set at 15" which if my maths is correct, is bigger than the present bass size limit. Rgds andyR

Jaffa, The proposed licensing scheme is only one component in the BMP. I am sure you would agree that having implemented a management strategy to ensure a more natural stock profile, any improvement or measurable progress will soon be wiped out without some form of effort control. Bag limits for anglers are also proposed so it won't be descriminatory. From what I can make out, and folks that I have spoken to, the authors wished that those who have fished for bass over a number of years, using traditional, selective and environmentally sympathetic methods, should be encouraged to continue. The idea of single species licenses, which this would be, is not new. Defra introduced this into the lobster and brown crab fishery as it was supposed to cap effort and limit the effects of derogation. Thats not to say that if the stock rebounded better than we think, that new licenses could not be issued. An interesting part of this is the carcass tagging idea. It is hope that with their introduction, there would be much better traceability which can be used as an enforcement tool. The SW handliners introduced their own tagging scheme as a response to the pair trawl caught product and has now progressed to the point where you can take the number off the tag and view the skipper and his boat on the net. They also get a better price per kilo as it happens. This would go a long way to killing off the unlicensed trade in bass, which is something that anglers and licensed commercial fishermen should agree with. andyR

Hi Sam, Might be my fault.

Few anglers who read this forum can doubt the enormous strides that activists like SACN, NFSA and BASS have made over the last few years. The question for me is, now that sea angling has its knees under the table, how is RSA going to carry it through and who or how is it going to be paid for. Is there a need for a fresh RSA organisation run on a donation and sponsorship basis, that does the "kick arse" type of represention the like of which most anglers and clubs are oblivious to? What will it cost and what will be the price if nothing changes? andyR

I made some enquiries and was advised the following: "War graves is a common term, it has no defined meaning in the Protection of Military Remains Act. Basically there are two types of site, Protected and Controlled. There is no offence committed if either type of site is looked at or examined without disturbance. It becomes an offence if it is disturbed, tampered or entered. Most ships fall under the heading Controlled and so are only vaguely covered by the act. 12 ships so far have been designated as Protected (Royal Oak, Repulse etc) by parliament and all aircraft are automatically Protected. Here you need the written permission of the Secretary for State for any disturbance or survey. So it is unlikely that a shipwreck has be designated by parliament but an aircraft is always a "War Grave". All known wreck positions are listed on the Hydrographer Charts. The details of these marks can be obtained from the Hydrographer Department for about £20 for five wrecks. The print out usually gives details from surveys and where known it ships name and date of loss. Another source of data (including GPS position) is from the Dive series of books eg Dive Cornwall and South Devon, Dive Sussex etc. these can be bought from the dive stores or from the diving mags. They list with details of loss and recent diving details all the known wrecks in a sea area from shore out to about 60/70 metre depth mark. Cheers andyR

Found this for the Royal Navy http://www.axfordsabode.org.uk/fowm/register.htm andyR

It's my understanding that there are many sites where access is restricted and protected by the war graves commission. Many only effect divers although there are some that get exposed on extreme tides that fall into the same category. Sam has an old German bomber on his patch that is protected although it can be viewed every so often depending on the tide and sand movements. Some lads from Brittlesea managed to get a bit of undercarriage (with the help of a winch on a cockle dredger) as a souvenier some years ago and they got a very polite but equally firm letter from the commission. I guess that if the Government had a mind to protect certain wreck sites from all expoitation, and not just casual observers like divers, then they probably could do so under existing legislation. andyR

John, Why don't you use the BMP as a blueprint for a S Wales Turbot management plan? In the meantime, is it SWWSAC's intention to supoort the 45? andyR

Jaffa, Funnily enough I don't have a problem with sustainable commercial whaling. Before I get piloried, I should qualify what I mean by that. I have no problem with indiginous communities that take whales as part of their culture continuing to do so, provided it is properly regulated. We should not forget the massive amount of unregulated culling that went on in context with their reproductive capacity to replenish. The felling of Californian red wood could be made sustainable, but it would probably end up at one every thousand years or so. Its all relative. I went to St Vincent in the Carribean some years ago and whaling was part of their culture. They take very little as there is a very limited export market, not surprisingly, and very few are actually taken. I guess I'm one of the very few on this forum that have actually eaten whale meat. As regards the WWF paper, I hope that they have either got it wrong for the North Sea or Jo Borg has one or two tricks up his sleeve. I doubt either as the author is much too bright and the commissions and member states management of the CFP speaks for itself. andyR

Wurzel, Being self employed as well, I understand what you mean about getting over the Christmas period without earning. andyR

Jaffa et al As the last bison was shot on the great plains of America and whales all around the globe were harpooned close to distinction by commercial hunters, many appear to have learned little from it. Intuitively, those those with the most to lose should be the most motivated to solve and bring about a stable balance in nature for todays and tomorrows generation. History has taught us that this acertion, however superficially plausible, is, in fact, completely false. European fishery policy from year dot, has always revolved around producing protein at the quayside. Fishery science and management is all about, and always has been, dominated by that agenda. andyR

Steve, Regretably, many would feel they have some affinity with the comment as there is some inverted logic in the idea, how ever distorted and ridiculous. andyR

Slashley, One of these should sort things out if you encounter any trouble. http://home.btconnect.com/bearuk/ andyR

You can take the get out of the CFP argument in different ways. You could start by asking if we would have been better not in it in the first place. This then opens up things where could start by asking what alternative plans were there at the time, were they or would they have been better than the cfp, and perhaps most important of all, would Westminster and Defra, or Maff as it was, do a better job of delivering it. Certainly as regards enforcement, the UK does have control up to the six mile limit and most agree that it has hardly been what could becalled a success story. Of course the EFFRA committee we told that enforcement wast't a problem inshore. It will never look bad if you never arrest anybody! It could even be the case that things might actually have been worse for some. Is there for instance, a possibility that UK historical rights in other member states waters could be affected?? So what are the alternatives NOW if we decide to bail out tomorrow? Well for my money pretty much the same set of questions and I am far from encouraged that sea angling would be any better off in or out. Sure, the goverment and Defra are starting to listen but on the ground, inshore fishery management, both the fish and the fishermen!! is still wholy dominated by commercial fishermen, ex commercial fishermen, councilers who are related to commercial fishermen and sea angling representatives, some of whom are also commercial fishermen. That is where the real problem is for UK sea anglers generally. Inshore fishery managment, or rather lack of it, development of fin-fish stocks being practically non-existent, devoid of any coherant future plans to develop on a broad user basis and largely incapable of absorbing the views of others. Regardless of whether sea anglers get more seats round the table, the ASFC and individual SFCs are resulutely against even discussing with sea anglers even when a document like the BMP is published. Of course, now that sea anglers have themselves produced a biologically, economically and legally sound development package for the first time ever in UK history, all the FN and other apologists can do is pick holes. Wouldn't it be fun if a few economist anglers were to register around here? Or even a couple of fishery scientists or managers who have actually experienced an effective rsa driven fishery plan being delivered. I've said it before, the BMP must be proving a real challenge for fishery scientists and managers. I'll bet BB has been having the "yes but minsister" routine for months now. Largely from proffesionals who can see everything they ever believed going up in smoke before their eyes. andyR

Matt, The Matrix is a great rod. You can hold it all day without breaking your back and responds well to drifting and fishing at anchor. Being a bit longer than a normal boat rod, you can cast with it as well. Love the rod, wouldn't be without it. andyR

Hi All, I could stand corrected but it is my impression that restrictions associated with fishing affloat in a nursery area revolve around the vessel having and engine or mechanised propulsion device. Kayaks, unless fitted with a trolling motor or otherwise do not fall into this category, so they may well have been acting legally. I do not condone their actions and wonder if they were aware of what they were doing and the impression it gave other members of the group and the general public. Times have moved on from boats filled to the gunnels with anglers perched on top. I would hope that this forum does not get into the "no killing bass" situation like others. Personally, I set myself an annual bass take of six. Big or small this it for me as I never take a fish for the table without knowing that its going to be eaten straight away. The only thing we have in the freezer is fish fingers and mackerel heads that I use for bait. Its all about education. Tight lines all andyR

AlderneyBassman, Are you getting many hits from Pollack? Even the smaller ones make a hell of a commotion when they hit. I've had several that breach the water and go end over end with the lure in their mouth when doing it. I tend to use either the Cordel pencil popper or the Dual slider myself. The Cordel fishes really well dead slow. Its the only thing you can do when there are a lot of shite auks about as they won't leave it alone if you start cranking it. Casts like a bullet as well. andyR

I had a similar problem a few years back. In the end I put on a shallow diver and cranked it in harder. Had a take straight away. As regards better hits on the popper itself, I have always tended to fish them much slower than the norm. Twitch them a bit, which is miles better with braid, and don't be afraid to leave it stationary for several seconds or even half a minute. andyR

Hi Wurzel, I hate to be argumentative but are you saying you would prefer to pay close on a quid a litre for fuel like the rest of British Industry? andyR

Very much depends on what you want to spend. If your budget is in the Shimano BR range then you might like to consider something more robust that doesn't have the bait runner gizmo. (and is a proper spinning reel) If you have a few quid behind the sofa and you want something bomb proof with a dream of a drag, then take a look at the Ahab #8 and #12 Sure, they ain't cheap but we are all too used to paying good money for a decent multiplier but very often buy cheap junk when it comes to fixed spools. http://www.finnorfishing.com/ andyR

Hi Chris, For sure there has to be interactions with other predators but there is a very big but surrounding this one. Firstly, we all agree that bass are migrating and possibly even spawning in the northern North Sea. I did hear that there are a lot of bass showing off Norway these days. What we need to accept along with this is that bass is a slow growing fish in comparison with more traditional northern species and does not have the skeletal growth capacity of the same. Cod do grow to over 100lb and they are a very serious contender especially when they shoal up. Bass by contrast tend to become more solitary as they grow bigger and its thought that they become more or less solitary for much of their lives and only aggregate in numbers to spawn. They also signs of being terratorial which might also be a factor. I cannot imagine even in my wildest dreams that european bass could reach the biomass that striped bass has. This is for the very simple reason that not only do stripers grow quicker, and three or four times as big, but the fishery is managed in a context where the US has absolute control up to the 200 miles EEZ. It is my understanding that no commercial fishing for striped bass takes place outside the inshore zone. Even if bass did start to compete with say cod for instance, we need to consider just what sort of cod biomass the north sea once supported. I tried to find out some figures for cod landings to the UK in the late sixties to no avail but I seem to remember being told a figure in the region of half a million tons. Through all this time there was plenty of sea bird life. A tough post and I'll need to think a bit and make some enquiries before I get myself in any deeper than I have already. Andy

Hi Wurzel, Whether BASS is a minority organisation or not, I would question the idea that bass is a minority target fish for sea anglers. It cannot be denied that the sea angling press is full of articles and stories about bass and where there isn't, there's an advert selling all the tackle imaginable to catch them. The lesson I learned some years ago was that the secret to catching more and bigger bass in the medium to long term involves pen and ink and not a shed full of fishing tackle. You may like to take a look at this report: http://www.investinfish.org/reports.html I sympathise with the small inshore operator who at least tries to make and effort and is prepared to discuss issues in the the way you do, but what really is the alternative? Do nothing? Perhaps if bass had a quota then parts of the BMP could be used to protect the inshore fleet. But as you say, its a minor species so one wonders what all the fuss is about. andyR

Ian, Indeed the striped bass model is very useful but we should not forget that the striped bass stock was in freefall callapse when action was eventually taken. Our own bass however have a massive head start in this respect and could quite possibly deliver far more, and far more quickly than BASS think. If the Scylla diving project is anything to go by, the actual increase in diving and economic activity is at least double the original estimate. With so much historical evidence from around the globe proving that restored and healthy stocks mean big bucks, it never ceases to amaze me how slow the Governement and fishery managers have been to pick up on it. Not least of which the trade and charter skippers I might add. Sea anglers are attempting to debunk the very fabric of european fishery policy which manifests itself in the CFP. Perhaps sea angling, with its massive economic output can bring about the radical changes needed at both national and european level. Lets face it. Whilst the commercials complain and blame the CFP endlessly, it has changed very little since the Treaty of Rome. With its overwhelming dominence at both local (SFCs) and national levels, I would have thought that if the commercial industry really wanted radical change then it would have happened by now. Something that Wurzel and co might like to comment upon. andyR