OKreally

Could be worse Richi....look what happened to his!!! :-)

Lot of noise coming from the valleys look you! Now check the pics more closely!!!! Regards Andrew (GB - please make cheque not love!!)

JRT Thanks for your kind observation on the looks... All I can suggest is that you try it...Most of the other manufacturers have copied our designs over the years...it's called the sincerest form of flattery but the reason (& please forgive the plug but it is fact based) that we sell more boats than the rest put together is that we innovate - you lead or you follow! The FF hatch in common with most of the features is a response to demand from yak fishermen, it serves the dual function of spray deflection & protection when folded & as a sunshield for the screen when raised. If you prefer to use it as deck space then you can - there's a handy space beneath & you can get at the back of the lid to fit nuts to bolts...could it be more versatile :-)? As for seats we supply two versions (one much vaunted on this & other forums but with our logo & some extra accessory options added)but our pretty average fittings are designed & placed to take most of the accessory back rests on the market - my favourite backrest is the cheapest we do because it suits my back - it's about preference you see? My apologies if this sounds defensive - I'm paid to say nice things about Ocean Kayaks...I have also sat my biased butt in this boat & paddled it for a couple of miles & think it will have broad appeal particularly to those who are venturing a little further in search of productive marks...we try to cover most of the bases hence the size of the range. Hoping that we'll have it for the Southampton Boat Show (14th-23rd September) or a little before..BO54 is the stand number & we have toffees!! Regards Andrew (Johnson Outdoors UK)

There have been a few question recently about materials recently so.... I thought I'd endeavour to give a general description of the various materials that kayaks are made from - a couple of posts have raised questions about strength, durability etc. Before I start let me say that we (Johnson Outdoors) make canoes, kayaks or both out of all these so I have no particular axe to grind for one material or the other. The adage horses for courses has never been so appropriate & there is also the cost factor to take in to the equation. 1) Polyethylene - the most common material for kayaks & canoes (US definition would be Eskimoes use kayaks, ethnic North American Indian use canoes. I'll talk mostly re the sit-on-top kayaks that are most used by the kayak anglers Polyethylene is usually roto moulded - that is a measured amount of the material (most regularly monolink polyethylene) is placed inside two halves of a female mould that make up the shape of the boat, heated to a melting point in an oven then rotated & tilted to coat the inside to create a one-piece seamless shell with the thickness computer controlled to dictate greater or lesser thickness where required. Fittings such as the inserts for attaching accessories can be placed inside the mould before moulding begins to allow them to be encapsulated so that there are minimal holes needed to attach further toys later. A controlled cooling process ensures that the boat retains it's shape & thickness & fittings are added when it has cooled & been freed from the mould. It has the advantages of being one-piece having no hull to deck join, very strong in that it bounces off most obstructions (Rolls Royces are an exception I believe!) & can be supplied in most colours. Once the tooling has been paid for the high number that can be produced from this ensures that the cost per boat is lower than most of the other materials available...certainly in terms of years of use they're probably the best value for money around - also reflected in high second hand values! Downsides are it's a little heavy & not as stiff as some other alternatives but the fact that virtually all the world's manufacturers use it would indicate it does most things for most people. Other derivatives are triple or multilayer set ups - we use these in the open (Canadian style) canoes. This has a hard-wearing layer on the outside, a foam layer in the middle & another layer of polyethylene on the inside. This creates a stiffer, lighter shell that has good sound deadening qualities (we also use it in some of the Old Town sit in kayaks) but is more expensive & more difficult to mould intricate shapes in to. It's also, in common with rotomoulding generally, a less exact science. Each year manufacturers learn more about rotomoulding but there will always be small vagaries caused by temperature, humidity etc on the day...I'd add that this applies to all plastic moulding. 2) Thermoformed polyethylene - as used by Bic or by ourselves in our Waterquest canoes, pedal boats, fishing tenders etc etc - sometimes called twin-sheet construction. These are made by taking a rigid sheet of polyethylene, softening it by heat in to a mould that makes up the top or the bottom moulding of the kayak. These two halves when cooled are joined by a number of methods...they can be welded as in the Bic or Pelican kayaks or flanged then stapled & shrunk on to a mastic bed & encapsulated by a fender plastic as we do with the Waterquest Dinghies, Basstenders etc. Both work...backings for fittings can be attached to the inside of the mould before top & bottom are joined together. Advantages are it's quick & cheap to make, quite stiff (on a par with rotomoulding) & a little cheaper to tool for. Downsides - It suffers from being more brittle & less bounceable. It's also difficult to get a variety of colour in to - you're generally restricted to the colour of the sheet you buy & there is always a small danger that what started as two pieces can become so again. Again it's difficult to get sophisticated shaping in to the moulds so the designs are generally quite simplistic. 3) Fibreglass - I use the term loosely as there are many forms of this material varying in sophistication & content but all use essentially two female moulds for top & bottom that are laid up seperately & then hull & deck are joined together. Some are 'vacuum bagged' where the resin is drawn through the woven fibres that make up the material portion of the glass by creating a vacuum that the resin then fills - this should ensure that the roving has an even & fully saturated spread of the resin allowing the minimum amount to be used so as to save weight. Fibreglass generally achieves all it's waterproofing qualities from the 'gelcoat' that is the first coat applied to the moulds - the skill of the laminator/sprayer will again dictate the evenness & weight of this coat...again it's usually one colour - often white as pigment adds weight to gelcoat. Exotic materials can add strength & stiffness & also save some weight - carbon & kevlar are among the most commonly used but add a large percentage to the cost. We build Necky sea kayaks in excess of 22ft long in various combinations of the above & various canoes in the numerically lower selling ranges. Advantages - a mould is by far the cheapest of these discussed to make so in line changes can be done quickly & cheaply.You can ask for custom alterations as the boat is being built. The boats are stiffer than the polyethylene so feel positive to paddle but the BIG sacrifice is ability to take abuse. Gelcoat chips easily (we've played recently with a two part baked on paint to see if it's any better) & the stiffness that makes it nice in the water means you have to take a lot more care beaching, crossing rocks, loading & unloading etc - if the gelcoat chips that's the only waterproof bit of the lay up so water can add weight & take a while to dry out before repair. Weight is less but to get anywhere near the strength of the poly boats it could be laid up to be a lot thicker but probably heavier so defeating the object It's not great to attach things to but as long as you get inside & reinforce with glass or load spreading washers or plates it can be done. I should add that it's the most repairable of the materials - cosmetics & strength are down to the skill of the repairer who gets a fair bit of practise! The cost of boats in this material appears (& is) high largely down to the high portion of labour content in manufacture & fitting out. Which leaves...Royalex - a very light, stiff heat formed sheet that is vacuum formed in to a mould when hot. It's very stiff & arguably about five to ten times stronger than fibreglass (a derivative is used in US army helmets) It's also very expensive as the company that owns it has a monopoly & it is expensive to tool for & difficult to work with. We make top of the market canoes & kayaks in it - no sit-on-tops yet!! Aluminium- mostly used in canoes..not much to add as it's not really relevant here. Wood...looks lovely...again see above for relevance! Birch Bark & canvas...yep - we still can make them but it's usually for film companies these days. Hypalon, cordura, nylon, rubber etc inflatables!.....answers the question that none of the others can - 'Will it go in my boot, locker, cupboard etc. They're much better these days but you buy them to answer the question above - you don't buy for performance or durability! There are others but not really relevant in this market. I'm sure that some people will add to this or take issue but it's supposed to be a general overview - I've already declared that we make in most of these materials so any criticism I make is equally applicable to our own products. My own background has always been in boats & a boatyard building wood, fibreglass & steel boats was first stop when I left (navy) school so I hope the opinions are based on a bit of experience. Cheers Andrew (Johnson Outdoors UK)

Sorry...dyslexic moment! 01493 854187

Mike For £1500 you'd get a fully braked 10 boat trailer with spare wheel, locking & padded everything & £200 change! Regards Man who buys plenty of trailers¬ :-)

Page Trailers - 01493 845187 www.pagetrailers.co.uk...You'll be greeted by a full on Norfolk accent but he makes a lot of bespoke & standard trailers for the UK trade including ours...& they are galvanised. Sharkbyte's figures, I guess are broadly accurate dependent on the quality of the axle etc - I know a good few people who have converted box trailers with varying degrees of success from brilliant to flip over at the first corner. Low CofG is key to this so small wheels can be a good thing. One tip - unless you can physically see the trailer - never believe the delivery date!! This applies to every trailer manufacturer I've ever used..not just Sean - we have no connection with them - He's just an honest guy who makes good trailers (albeit not often to timetable!!). Regards Andrew (Johnson Outdoors UK)

It's not a great price, I'm afraid. Our tame trailer manufacturer around the corner can do brand new for about £100 less so don't go upping the bids! Trailers get more expensive when you add brakes, heavy duty axles etc...this one is a slightly modified dinghy trailer. Sorry - I don't mean to knock the post - just to put the price in perspective. Andrew

Kev While I was out there we tried a few types...all would work as you say for a while or to a greater or lesser degree. The 'problem' is that we could tool for some HB models & then they wouldn't fit other brands & it's a fairly pricey process for what, even worldwide, is a fairly small market & would add a mildly disproportionate amount to the cost. The most succesful was a full 'grommet' with a single slot cut through but fitting the edges of the hole but if the cables move then the relative seal is not reliable to keep it dry..just a bit drier. We'll keep looking as I said! Cheers Andrew

I can't really comment, as you can see the water was glassy, but it's the same longitudinal hatch as the Big Game & will be higher than the P13 because it's a deeper boat. We have changed the forward hatch attachment as there is now a brilliant four way buckle on the market that we've used on our sea kayaks with great success that will be on the new models where necessary. I'd always be wary of opening a through to hull hatch at sea if there's a likelihood of taking a wave...used properly, as always, there should be no problem The changes come about through people's feedback - if it's practical & possible we try to incorporate changes suggested by users...it is by far the best form of market research so thanks to all for suggestions. Spike Gladwin, the designer is a Brit & is rated as top of the tree currently but he's the first to admit the influence & inspiration of the end user. Andrew (JO UK)

No - my comparisons were based around the Dorado £ price being quoted in $ - I just did the maths bit to validify the actual difference. Final prices in the UK are projected to be £750-800 for the standard version...fully fitted inc. 343 F/F, rudder, paddle, deluxe seat etc getting on for twice that. Always difficult to finalise without knowing how many fit in a container etc. Also final price is not defined yet for US. NB When looking at US prices... they don't include delivery (paid by the customer & more punitive in Florida than Washington State) or state sales tax..their equivalent of VAT & rate varies by state. Hope this is clear Andrew

Stu Not sure of the weight yet - the two pictured (see also Anglers Afloat) were literally the first ones out of the mould & were fitted out as I watched - the figures are approximations according to design spec but may change up or down. Er excuse me too - £1495 (the UK basic price) =$2975 at this morning's exchange rate £1795 = $3572 - I actually think that's no bad price for a composite boat but in the interest of accuracy etc! Regards Andrew

It's an excellent drawing.... It is available in chandleries & goes under the name of a cable gland. We have played with splitting one of these to allow the large end (which, for efficient working cannot be removed) of the transducer cable through & it has worked after a fashion. I think many kayakers have experimented similarly but the problem is that you really need something that allows the width of the end through yet seals round the width of a wire (it's a male dream!)..I would welcome feedback from anyone who has had success with any brand so we can share that knowledge? We'll keep trying! Regards Andrew (JO UK)

And we created fibreglass sit on tops in 1971 (then we moved forward)....your move!?... :-) Andrew

Or....listen to your customers & respond? :-)

Should be with us August/September - may debut at the Southampton Tried it last week on the Puget Sound & it has a little more volume than the 15/Elite with a couple of nice toys added. We'll be running it alongside the Elite - haven't got a price yet but certainly will cost more. Bloody gobby Americans jumping the gun...I'm still jetlagged from the trip!! Regards Andrew (Johnson Outdoors UK)

The company link referred to is not supplied from the UK. I can only warn again - Buying fom the US has these disadvantages :- 1) You stand a 50/50 chance of having the parcel impounded by customs & face a possible fine because units made for sale in the US are NOT CE approved - It is illegal to import OR use products that are not CE approved, CE products are made on seperate production to the European specification. 2) US warranty is one year & is held with the company you bought from - i.e. the US retailer so that you have to return it to the US. Compare this with 2 years in the UK (units are built to the higher spec required by CE regulation so are built to a higher spec) 3) Units (where applicable) are not compatible with EU charts & measurement criteria. To declare my interest - Johnson Outdoors are the owners of Humminbird - We benefit whether you buy in the UK or the US so have no axe to grind other than the fact that if you ignore the above then you take the chances associated with this. The strong $/£ rate makes it look attractive to buy from the States.....it could be an expensive 'saving' particularly if confiscated by HM Customs & Excise.- You have no recourse in this case...I explain this to a number of people literally every week - We cannot help if it is an illegal import!.The US seller probably doesn't even know about EU regulations so is unlikely to admit to an illegal import if it means that he will be fined - if he does know & sends anyway he is putting the risk on to the end customer.....that would be you! Regards Andrew Johnson Outdoors UK (owners of Humminbird + all products on www.johnsonoutdoors.co.uk) uote name='Bobj' date='Jun 20 2007, 02:59 AM' post='755416'] Here you go, mate: http://www.fishing.spirita.net/tackle/humm...-fishfinder.htm The company link referred to is not supplied from the UK. I can only warn again - Buying fom the US has these disadvantages :- 1) You stand a 50/50 chance of having the parcel impounded by customs & face a possible fine because units made for sale in the US are NOT CE approved - It is illegal to import OR use products that are not CE approved, CE products are made on seperate production to the European specification. 2) US warranty is one year & is held with the company you bought from - i.e. the US retailer so that you have to return it to the US. Compare this with 2 years in the UK (units are built to the higher spec required by CE regulation so are built to a higher spec) 3) Units (where applicable) are not compatible with EU charts & measurement criteria. To declare my interest - Johnson Outdoors are the owners of Humminbird - We benefit whether you buy in the UK or the US so have no axe to grind other than the fact that if you ignore the above then you take the chances associated with this. The strong $/£ rate makes it look attractive to buy from the States.....it could be an expensive 'saving' particularly if confiscated by HM Customs & Excise.- You have no recourse in this case...I explain this to a number of people literally every week - We cannot help if it is an illegal import!.The US seller probably doesn't even know about EU regulations so is unlikely to admit to an illegal import if it means that he will be fined - if he does know & sends anyway he is putting the risk on to the end customer.....that would be you! Regards Andrew Johnson Outdoors UK (owners of Humminbird + all products on www.johnsonoutdoors.co.uk) uote name='Bobj' date='Jun 20 2007, 02:59 AM' post='755416'] Here you go, mate: http://www.fishing.spirita.net/tackle/humm...-fishfinder.htm

That'd be a beer from your good mate!! :-)

An apology to all the people who discover this same issue! BFM were sent the competition in a format that showed the first letter of various phrases highlighted in a way that a word could be spelt from them. Sadly their printers didn't appreciate that this was the essence of the competition & printed as they did. The competition will be re issued next month with an apology from the typesetters...they'll be the ones with a footprint on their arses!! Apologies once more Andrew (Johnson Outdoors UK)

Vlad The biggest concern you have is that customs will inspect it & find that it is not CE approved & confiscate it. That's a bigger concern than the duty! It's actually illegal to import or use non CE approved product & there could also be a fine applicable - most US companies selling particularly via ebay either don't know this or choose to ignore it in pursuit of your money. If it hasn't got a CE Yes I have an axe to grind as we're the UK importer but you'll appreciate that we (Johnson Outdoors) own Humminbird so the US sales are as important as the UK ones & I deal weekly with the aftermath of people trying to find a way to get their money back - Unless the US dealer will do so (& bear in mind he then has to admit the illegal export) then it ain't going to happen. I've heard every 'reason' in the book from unscrupulous UK & US retailers as to why it isn't or shouldn't be so or is unlikely to be checked etc but if you import non-approved products then you run the risks above. I post this as a warning to all... we love to sell Humminbird whichever side of the Atlantic but we hate our customers being misled, put at risk of prosecution, having product confiscated or plain ripped off. I know there is at least one contributor here who knows the law from the enforcement perspective who has issued similar warnings in the past. Regards Andrew (Johnson Outdoors UK)

No Same price!! Regards Andrew (Johnson Outdoors UK)

Keith All sealed units will suffer this to a greater or lesser degree as there will always be an element of moisture in the air inside which is affected temporarily by temperature changes - if you try the link http://www.humminbird.com/normal.asp?id=917 it gives pointers on how to minimise the effect & how long it should last. Regards Andrew (Johnson Outdoors UK)

Gloomy NB...Deva Marine are in administration!! Regards Andrew