Angling Trust call for otter management

[Anderoo]

My views on otters are based purely on my local environment - which does contain a good population of otters. I'd have thought this would have given some hope to people worried about the threat of increased predation, as only one side of the argument is ever given - that a water will be decimated. If it hasn't already, then it will soon, and then you'll see and wish you'd listened. But my experiences seem to count for nothing, so I officially give up, and this will be my last word on the subject. I just hope everyone banging this particular drum has thought very carefully about the fallout.

[Worms]

As long as people like yourself stick to their guns and play the common-sense game I wouldn't worry too much about those that follow the un-researched horror stories of the gutter press and their associates mate! The balance will become self evident eventually.

[poledark]

I would refer you Otter lovers to the slaughter of the few large (even record size) barbel in the Ouse. Certainly not an overstocked commercial.

Photographs of the bodies and eyewitness accounts of others.

 

But of course, some will never believe anything that differs with their opinions..

 

Andrew, you kep banging on about your chub stocks, but you have put forward no evidence to back up your claims that there has been no reduction in stock levels. Just your opinion based on your limited catches.

 

Put quite simply, where there are Otters, they will eat fish....therefore there will be a reduction in the numbers of fish in that river.

 

I keep reading the words "overstocked" and "carp" and "commercials" most often used by Otter lovers and self proffessed carp haters. Perhaps some ought to consider whether they relly should be posting on a fishing website?

 

Den

[Anderoo]

OK, my final final word is that I haven't ever claimed that there has been no reduction in chub (or any other species) stocks.

[lutra]

Put quite simply, where there are Otters, they will eat fish....therefore there will be a reduction in the numbers of fish in that river.

If you swap the word Otter for the word Pike, you have the same reason some anglers go round killing pike.

 

Just give nature time, its the best manager.

[Worms]

The otter "problem" always seems to be raised by the fishers of "overstocked commercial carp" ponds though Den. Nobody's denying that otters eat fish, it just seems that natural fisheries seem to cope much better than stocked ones. Rivers with alleged kills of big barbel by otters such as the Wensum and the Ouse are also stocked. Is it just that these rivers are not suitable for barbel? The fish are heavily targeted and so subject to predation? Whatever the reason it seems that those rivers with barbel that don't need top ups and have otters don't have otter predation problems, not the ones I fish anyway!

Edited February 18, 2010 by Worms

[poledark]

The otter "problem" always seems to be raised by the fishers of "overstocked commercial carp" ponds though Den. Nobody's denying that otters eat fish, it just seems that natural fisheries seem to cope much better than stocked ones. Rivers with alleged kills of big barbel by otters such as the Wensum and the Ouse are also stocked. Is it just that these rivers are not suitable for barbel? The fish are heavily targeted and so subject to predation? Whatever the reason it seems that those rivers with barbel that don't need top ups and have otters don't have otter predation problems, not the ones I fish anyway!

 

 

That is a load of rubbish..............."alleged" "Overstocked" "Natural cope better" "Heavily targetted so subject to predation" What do you mean by that last statement?

 

To be honest mate, you haven't got a clue what goes on in most rivers, but the owners of still waters can....and do......know when their fish are being killed.

 

The guys who fished Adams saw the evidence with their own eyes, even though you persist in saying they are all liars and fools...............Actually it would seem from some of the comments from you and your supporters that there is even room for a bit of "humour" in this topic, personally I can imagine feeling really upset about the loss of a specimen fish from any water I fish.

 

Probably well over half the nations fresh water anglers fish in man made lakes/pits. Most dug and stocked in an era of no Otters. These are the lifeblood of the tackle trade, they make up well over half the licence sales (the voice of angling) and as such, they are entitled to protect their sport.

 

And please don't start talking fences again.

 

Lutra, you plead for giving"nature" time to find a balance..............one pair of Otters.............one fish each per day..............then they have young, so several fish a day for several months...........upwards of 1500 fish a year? Not an unreasonable figure surely? Where is the balance? I would call that serious damage to any fishery....even a river.

 

Andrew. how many pairs of Otters could Wingham comfortably sustain? I ask you this because you know that lake quite well. I would reckon 3 pairs on the main lake and 1 pair on the carp lake would strike a fair and natural balance. Rich pickings for the Otters, after all it is a heavily stocked commercial , ( sorry Steve, I should have said "well managed" ) . Either way, it has a very large stock of specimen Tench and Perch, so should have no trouble in finding a sustainable level for the Otters. Wouldn't matter anyway, the Tench were stocked so they must be fair game.

 

Likewise the River Stour (Kentish) stocked over a number of years with barbel and chub, it now supports a good head of chub and pockets of barbel. It has a run of seatrout so I assume (?) that any Otters which move in would target these and not bother with the stocked fish? No problem anyway, they were stocked so don't matter........................

 

Den

Edited February 18, 2010 by poledark

[Worms]

That is a load of rubbish..............."alleged" "Overstocked" "Natural cope better" "Heavily targetted so subject to predation" What do you mean by that last statement?

It's not rubbish Den it's based on fact. So far all of the panic stories that I have read have involved ponds or rivers that are stocked with fish. There has been a lot of anger about the Wensum and the fact that the barbel don't seem to be spawning so the EA have stocked it with small fish. For some reason the Wensum is not a river that is suitable for barbel spawning/recruitment. Whether it's a water quality issue I don't know.

 

The big fish are targeted by anglers and guides looking for the specimens. Every time a fish is caught it needs a considerable amount of time to recover (much longer than the time we anglers give it to swim off after unhooking). In some species as much as 36-48 hours for the waste products generated by the exertions of the fight to leave the system. In the meantime the fish is not at peak fitness. If it gets caught again within that recovery period the time to attain normal fitness increases exponentially and so on. At this time of course any fish is going to be a target for predators. Obviously in densely stocked ponds with a constant stream of anglers chasing the same big fish this is going to have a negative effect on the fish population. This is why many of these pools need re-stocking.

 

To be honest mate, you haven't got a clue what goes on in most rivers, but the owners of still waters can....and do......know when their fish are being killed.

 

I do have a clue Den and on some rivers I know what is happening. It's funny that otters haven't been a problem until they've reached the "commercial" parts of the country. Scotland, Wales parts of the south-west have had otters in high numbers on some of the UK's most prolific game rivers. A lot of these rivers are also prolific coarse rivers when they reach the lowlands.

 

Within 5 miles of my house are two stillwater coarse fishing complexes. One held some national championships a couple of years ago. No fences, no known otter problems. My guess is because their stocking levels are kept within reasonable limits.

 

The other was abandoned as a fishery about 10 years ago. The guy went bankrupt (nothing to do with the fishery side of his business). Anyway, the local kids (and some not so local adults) plundered the place for a couple of years until a new owner bought it. I was employed to do an environmental impact assessment on the place prior to a planning application a couple of years ago. The surveys included daytime and night time surveys over a three month period. The pools were full of fish. Roach, tench, carp, pike and sticklebacks. They were spawning successfully as well. In one of the outer bunds to the fishery was an otter holt. The tracks found suggested a female and two cubs in residence. Allowing for the fact that there was probably a dog otter using the area as well that makes 4 otters on a four acre site. Allow for the herons, resident kingfishers, comorants, terns and the aforementioned pike this place shouldn't have a fish left in it. It does though. There is a balance. The fish can spawn, there is predation and everything works fine. Ok, it probably isn't the top fishing venue in the country but the water hasn't been stocked for 10 years at least, people robbed the fish from it and now predators are keeping it at a "natural" state.

 

 

 

The guys who fished Adams saw the evidence with their own eyes, even though you persist in saying they are all liars and fools

 

I've only ever heard that people found dead fish. I didn't realise that the fish kills were witnessed. Did they get photographs?

 

...............Actually it would seem from some of the comments from you and your supporters that there is even room for a bit of "humour" in this topic, personally I can imagine feeling really upset about the loss of a specimen fish from any water I fish.

 

To be honest the death of a "specimen" fish is something I expect. It's a bit like being surprised when an old person dies. As for humour, well, I don't think anybody is laughing at fish deaths, just at some of the responses from some of the "experts" and "legends".

 

Probably well over half the nations fresh water anglers fish in man made lakes/pits. Most dug and stocked in an era of no Otters. These are the lifeblood of the tackle trade, they make up well over half the licence sales (the voice of angling) and as such, they are entitled to protect their sport.

 

And please don't start talking fences again.

 

But at what cost? At the expense of angling? That's what will happen if anglers call for culls on otters. Regardless of whether the fish or otters were there first and the perceived rights and wrongs of predation as viewed by anglers. If this is shouted from the roof tops then anglers will lose credibility and respect. It happened with hunting foxes. All of a sudden we've gone from quiet, eccentric, smelly fools on the river/pond bank to outspoken, uneducated fluffy otter killers that are demanding in national newspapers, with support from our "governing body", that we need to kill them because they are ruining our "sport" but we don't see why we should spend our own money to protect our own fish, we want the taxpayer to fund it! It's a total no-brainer Den!

 

The tackle trade have stayed very quiet on the issue, why don't they cough up some of their billions to fence a few ponds? That would improve things in everybody's eyes then wouldn't it?

[Tigger]

It's weird how people are targeting otters and cormorants when there are so many other creatures that consume fish including fish themselves yet don't get targeted, at one time it was the Heron that was the scorn of the bird life by anglers but it's now turned tide and there are other things to point the finger at. Pretty pathetic, ignorant and selfish of anglers. I would say the biggest consumers of fish (after man) is fish themselves so maybe all predatory fish should be thrown up the bank, thing is which one's as there nearly all predatory even if only upon the eggs of other species. Personally I'm all for Britains natural wildlife and if it means catching less fish then so be it.

[poledark]

Worms, I wouldn't take anything you say as fact, you show your true colours when you mention Carp and Commercial. I have seen the pics of the Adams fish, most "experts" would agree that the damage inflicted was classic Otter damage. I have seen pics going back 50 years or more of Otter kills, and they seem to match those at Adams and the Wensum.

 

As part of your research to become "qualified" to speak on the Otter issue, I assume you have seen these sort of pics?

 

How many Otters should Wingham have?

 

Den