ANGLING AND SHOOTING

[far bank stalker]

When in my early to mid teens my free time was invariably taken up either fishing or shooting. I fished for everything big or small in search of sport and for the same reason only really shot pigeons. I was always told that if you could shoot wild pigeons you could shoot pretty much anything, once their wings are set they're like bloody missiles.

 

One other thing i learned about was pheasant shooting. Traditionally, i was told, although it may be wrong, pheasants were only shot in certain circumstances, namely in a wooded valley with one side of the valley a fair bit higher than the other and the shooting party in the bottom of the valley. The pheasants would then be driven over the edge of the high side of the valley, where they would set their wings and dive for the other side. In these circumstances pheasants fly at an incredible speed. Really it's the only 'sporting' way to shoot such a large, awkward and ungainly bird.

 

Modern pheasant shooting is just a joke. Beating a pheasant up from ground level is like shooting at a static bag of feathers. Its very unsporting and so maybe even cruel. And yet you'd be hard pressed to find any other kind.

 

We shot pigeons for two reasons, the area i shot in (Hatfield Broadoak) was infested with wood pigeon, sometimes walking in to a newly drilled rape field the pigeons rising would blot out the sun, really! The other reason was it was good sport, maybe the best to be had. Everything we shot was sold to a man called Sid Camp, who plucked them and sent them to france and gave us shells instead of money. Perfect!

 

But modern game angling seems to have gone the same way. I'm primarily a course angler, but a worked out a while back that by adapting i could fish year round. My last rant was about syndicates shutting out publicly funded waters to public fishing, however, this one is in defence of those same syndicates. Our beautiful rivers are being abstracted by unscrupulous private 'put and take' fisheries who divert waterways to feed artificial lakes. Try it this way, two of my favorite rivers have been poached in their entirety. They no longer exist in any meaningful way. They both feed 'put and take' fisheries. So i can't fish real wild waters because someone worked out they can make alot of money charging people to pretend they're fishing.

 

Last year on the Dee around 10,000 head of salmon were counted at chester, by the time you get to llangollen nary a fish. Thats around 60 miles. People are genuinely confused about where they disappear to. Basically every single private field along the river is now an 'exclusive' salmon fishing beat. Permits cost big money but there's no regulation, unlike syndicates, so thats where all the salmon have gone. Sold to the highest bidder

 

What prompted this rant was the news this week that the largest wild animal in Britain, a very well known and loved stag was killed by a paying hunter. A private landowner worked out that the stag frequented his land, then sold the right to kill it. So, an ambush then. It made me very sad. It didn't need culling, if a cull was required any other animals could be selected, ones who where maybe weaker or injured. It was just for thrills.

 

The man who shot it was no hunter, though i don't doubt he dresses the part. This commercialisation of everything is diluting, polluting and destroying the thing we love. I haven't really included commercial course waters in this, i don't doubt the same is true for some of those too, but i know a lot are owned by genuine anglers.

 

i suppose this has no real point or conclusion, but i fear for the future of my sport. I can forsee a time when either i can't afford to fish or there's actually no point because the fish/water aren't there any more.

[Jaffa]

When in my early to mid teens my free time was invariably taken up either fishing or shooting. I fished for everything big or small in search of sport and for the same reason only really shot pigeons. I was always told that if you could shoot wild pigeons you could shoot pretty much anything, once their wings are set they're like bloody missiles.

 

One other thing i learned about was pheasant shooting. Traditionally, i was told, although it may be wrong, pheasants were only shot in certain circumstances, namely in a wooded valley with one side of the valley a fair bit higher than the other and the shooting party in the bottom of the valley. The pheasants would then be driven over the edge of the high side of the valley, where they would set their wings and dive for the other side. In these circumstances pheasants fly at an incredible speed. Really it's the only 'sporting' way to shoot such a large, awkward and ungainly bird.

 

Modern pheasant shooting is just a joke. Beating a pheasant up from ground level is like shooting at a static bag of feathers. Its very unsporting and so maybe even cruel. And yet you'd be hard pressed to find any other kind.

 

We shot pigeons for two reasons, the area i shot in (Hatfield Broadoak) was infested with wood pigeon, sometimes walking in to a newly drilled rape field the pigeons rising would blot out the sun, really! The other reason was it was good sport, maybe the best to be had. Everything we shot was sold to a man called Sid Camp, who plucked them and sent them to france and gave us shells instead of money. Perfect!

 

But modern game angling seems to have gone the same way. I'm primarily a course angler, but a worked out a while back that by adapting i could fish year round. My last rant was about syndicates shutting out publicly funded waters to public fishing, however, this one is in defence of those same syndicates. Our beautiful rivers are being abstracted by unscrupulous private 'put and take' fisheries who divert waterways to feed artificial lakes. Try it this way, two of my favorite rivers have been poached in their entirety. They no longer exist in any meaningful way. They both feed 'put and take' fisheries. So i can't fish real wild waters because someone worked out they can make alot of money charging people to pretend they're fishing.

 

Last year on the Dee around 10,000 head of salmon were counted at chester, by the time you get to llangollen nary a fish. Thats around 60 miles. People are genuinely confused about where they disappear to. Basically every single private field along the river is now an 'exclusive' salmon fishing beat. Permits cost big money but there's no regulation, unlike syndicates, so thats where all the salmon have gone. Sold to the highest bidder

 

What prompted this rant was the news this week that the largest wild animal in Britain, a very well known and loved stag was killed by a paying hunter. A private landowner worked out that the stag frequented his land, then sold the right to kill it. So, an ambush then. It made me very sad. It didn't need culling, if a cull was required any other animals could be selected, ones who where maybe weaker or injured. It was just for thrills.

 

The man who shot it was no hunter, though i don't doubt he dresses the part. This commercialisation of everything is diluting, polluting and destroying the thing we love. I haven't really included commercial course waters in this, i don't doubt the same is true for some of those too, but i know a lot are owned by genuine anglers.

 

i suppose this has no real point or conclusion, but i fear for the future of my sport. I can forsee a time when either i can't afford to fish or there's actually no point because the fish/water aren't there any more.

 

 

 

So a big deer was killed and the media circus gets to feast That stag will feed more people than Jesus and his fishes I'd guess.. . Pretty much same old same? Least the media "royality" can only bay for some ones death rather than order it in the way things used to be..

 

I used to beat as a teenager and loved it. Great day out in the woods, great fun with the other beaters. The shooters were mostly on some close but "other" experience that involved them being ****'s to human beings out-with their expensive trip; ie pretty much everyone.

 

Big shock after my first days beating was seeing the tipper truck being filled with the days "catch".

"

That was 30 years ago. That was my experience as an "Angler", whatever that actually is..

[Jaffa]

When in my early to mid teens my free time was invariably taken up either fishing or shooting. I fished for everything big or small in search of sport and for the same reason only really shot pigeons. I was always told that if you could shoot wild pigeons you could shoot pretty much anything, once their wings are set they're like bloody missiles.

 

One other thing i learned about was pheasant shooting. Traditionally, i was told, although it may be wrong, pheasants were only shot in certain circumstances, namely in a wooded valley with one side of the valley a fair bit higher than the other and the shooting party in the bottom of the valley. The pheasants would then be driven over the edge of the high side of the valley, where they would set their wings and dive for the other side. In these circumstances pheasants fly at an incredible speed. Really it's the only 'sporting' way to shoot such a large, awkward and ungainly bird.

 

Modern pheasant shooting is just a joke. Beating a pheasant up from ground level is like shooting at a static bag of feathers. Its very unsporting and so maybe even cruel. And yet you'd be hard pressed to find any other kind.

 

We shot pigeons for two reasons, the area i shot in (Hatfield Broadoak) was infested with wood pigeon, sometimes walking in to a newly drilled rape field the pigeons rising would blot out the sun, really! The other reason was it was good sport, maybe the best to be had. Everything we shot was sold to a man called Sid Camp, who plucked them and sent them to france and gave us shells instead of money. Perfect!

 

But modern game angling seems to have gone the same way. I'm primarily a course angler, but a worked out a while back that by adapting i could fish year round. My last rant was about syndicates shutting out publicly funded waters to public fishing, however, this one is in defence of those same syndicates. Our beautiful rivers are being abstracted by unscrupulous private 'put and take' fisheries who divert waterways to feed artificial lakes. Try it this way, two of my favorite rivers have been poached in their entirety. They no longer exist in any meaningful way. They both feed 'put and take' fisheries. So i can't fish real wild waters because someone worked out they can make alot of money charging people to pretend they're fishing.

 

Last year on the Dee around 10,000 head of salmon were counted at chester, by the time you get to llangollen nary a fish. Thats around 60 miles. People are genuinely confused about where they disappear to. Basically every single private field along the river is now an 'exclusive' salmon fishing beat. Permits cost big money but there's no regulation, unlike syndicates, so thats where all the salmon have gone. Sold to the highest bidder

 

What prompted this rant was the news this week that the largest wild animal in Britain, a very well known and loved stag was killed by a paying hunter. A private landowner worked out that the stag frequented his land, then sold the right to kill it. So, an ambush then. It made me very sad. It didn't need culling, if a cull was required any other animals could be selected, ones who where maybe weaker or injured. It was just for thrills.

 

The man who shot it was no hunter, though i don't doubt he dresses the part. This commercialisation of everything is diluting, polluting and destroying the thing we love. I haven't really included commercial course waters in this, i don't doubt the same is true for some of those too, but i know a lot are owned by genuine anglers.

 

i suppose this has no real point or conclusion, but i fear for the future of my sport. I can forsee a time when either i can't afford to fish or there's actually no point because the fish/water aren't there any more.

 

 

 

So a big deer was killed and the media circus gets to feast That stag will feed more people than Jesus and his fishes I'd guess.. . Pretty much same old same? Least the media "royality" can only bay for some ones death rather than order it in the way things used to be..

 

I used to beat as a teenager and loved it. Great day out in the woods, great fun with the other beaters. The shooters were mostly on some close but "other" experience that involved them being ****'s to human beings out-with their expensive trip; ie pretty much everyone.

 

Big shock after my first days beating was seeing the tipper truck being filled with the days "catch".

"

That was 30 years ago. That was my experience as an "Angler"/"beater"/"Scot"/"Conservationist"/"Tory"/"Labour", whatever any of those actually are..

[Sportsman]

Couple of points

Regarding the stag, stalking deer is very common in the Highlands, it is a major source of income for many highland estates, you could almost say it is an industry, and it creates many jobs in areas where there are no other choices. This particular stag just happened to be big. Stags with good heads (antlers) are shot as trophies and pay a premium to the estate. Whether the person who shot it was a hunter or not depends on your definition. I (and I suspect you) would have to know considerably more about the circumstances.

Regarding the Salmon in the Welsh Dee are you suggesting that 10,000 salmon are caught by rod and line between Chester and Llangollen?

If that is the case I wonder why we haven't heard of such success.

 

Quote:

 

Modern pheasant shooting is just a joke. Beating a pheasant up from ground level is like shooting at a static bag of feathers. Its very unsporting and so maybe even cruel. And yet you'd be hard pressed to find any other kind.

 

Do you do much Pheasant shooting then? I could take you to some lowland shoots where hitting pheasant coming out of game cover crops can be just as hard as hitting pheasants over the treetops. A lot depends on the birds and how they have been kept.

 

There may be some grains of truths in what you say and I am sure that there are commercial pheasant shoots with poor practices in the same way that there are poor commercial fisheries but you comments do not reflect the deer stalking, salmon fishing and pheasant shooting that I have been delighted to take part in over the past 30 years.

[far bank stalker]

Couple of points

Regarding the stag, stalking deer is very common in the Highlands, it is a major source of income for many highland estates, you could almost say it is an industry, and it creates many jobs in areas where there are no other choices. This particular stag just happened to be big. Stags with good heads (antlers) are shot as trophies and pay a premium to the estate. Whether the person who shot it was a hunter or not depends on your definition. I (and I suspect you) would have to know considerably more about the circumstances.

Regarding the Salmon in the Welsh Dee are you suggesting that 10,000 salmon are caught by rod and line between Chester and Llangollen?

If that is the case I wonder why we haven't heard of such success.

 

Quote:

 

Modern pheasant shooting is just a joke. Beating a pheasant up from ground level is like shooting at a static bag of feathers. Its very unsporting and so maybe even cruel. And yet you'd be hard pressed to find any other kind.

 

Do you do much Pheasant shooting then? I could take you to some lowland shoots where hitting pheasant coming out of game cover crops can be just as hard as hitting pheasants over the treetops. A lot depends on the birds and how they have been kept.

 

There may be some grains of truths in what you say and I am sure that there are commercial pheasant shoots with poor practices in the same way that there are poor commercial fisheries but you comments do not reflect the deer stalking, salmon fishing and pheasant shooting that I have been delighted to take part in over the past 30 years.

[far bank stalker]

never shot pheasant. i was only a teenager and the people i shot with didn't consider it sport. horses for courses. pheasnt shooting in the south east was then, and i suspect now, something quite alien to what you might expect to find in the highland or lowlands of scotland. a certain type get involved in the sport because they percieve they should, because it befits their status to wander the manor in tweeds. these people are not involved out of a deep love of the mystery of nature.

 

as for the Dee salmon, i have no idea where they go, funnily enough neither does anyone else. i'm just extrapolating from the given information, like everybody else with an opinion. what is certain is that before the ungodly boom in angling during the late 70's early 80's hardly any of the private fields adjoining the river would have been subject to the same angling pressure they are now. other than that the only change in circumstances has been the cleaning up of the river.

 

the country jobs/hunting angle may hold water where you live, but in the south east, surely the spiritual home of fox hunting it's just a tired excuse for social elitists to project their power over the land they own. a man in a hedge with a .22 could sort vermin way more effectively and anyway all sensible research shows that foxes regardless of hunting method will flourish. they are among the most successful species in the country. i live in north wales, very rural. there is very little 'trophy hunting', quite a lot of 'eating hunting'. the locals seem to be surviving ok.

 

essentially it's a bit like karma, it's not what you do, it's the intent behind what you do. you no doubt have the upper hand when it comes to this subject. i haven't really hunted for a long time, but when i did not everybody i encountered did it for the same reasons. i just feel that catering to the needs of people who are in it for crappy reasons is then just as bad

 

i

[Steve Walker]

We shot pigeons for two reasons, the area i shot in (Hatfield Broadoak) was infested with wood pigeon, sometimes walking in to a newly drilled rape field the pigeons rising would blot out the sun, really! The other reason was it was good sport, maybe the best to be had. Everything we shot was sold to a man called Sid Camp, who plucked them and sent them to france and gave us shells instead of money. Perfect!

 

Sounds as if all you got out of the deal was the fun of shooting the pigeons - you didn't eat them, you didn't get paid for killing them and it wasn't your crop they were eating. Not sure how that stacks up with;

 

"essentially it's a bit like karma, it's not what you do, it's the intent behind what you do"

 

Don't really see a difference in motivation between you doing that and others hunting foxes or shooting deer.

[Anderoo]

Sounds as if all you got out of the deal was the fun of shooting the pigeons - you didn't eat them, you didn't get paid for killing them and it wasn't your crop they were eating. Not sure how that stacks up with;

 

"essentially it's a bit like karma, it's not what you do, it's the intent behind what you do"

 

Don't really see a difference in motivation between you doing that and others hunting foxes or shooting deer.

 

I agree with Steve. If you kill animals simply for the pleasure of killing, you leave yourself wide open for easy counter-attacks.

 

Killing wild animals for food (sustainably) or for reducing numbers where it is deemed necessary - in a way that is as painless and non-stressful as is possible - I can understand, even though I don't understand the motivation.

 

In a similar way, I feel that certain types of angling are morally fine and others quite disgusting. However, there are plenty of people who would see no distinction between what I find OK and what I don't, and would consider me quite despicable.

 

Strangely, for someone who doesn't shoot and who would never want to deliberately kill small animals, I think it's much more defensible to shoot and kill an animal than keep fish trapped in an inescapable environment, with terrible water quality, nowhere near enough natural food, in immense competition with other fish because of huge overstocking, and subject to the stress of repeated capture by people who barely know what they're doing.

[far bank stalker]

I agree with Steve. If you kill animals simply for the pleasure of killing, you leave yourself wide open for easy counter-attacks.

 

Killing wild animals for food (sustainably) or for reducing numbers where it is deemed necessary - in a way that is as painless and non-stressful as is possible - I can understand, even though I don't understand the motivation.

 

In a similar way, I feel that certain types of angling are morally fine and others quite disgusting. However, there are plenty of people who would see no distinction between what I find OK and what I don't, and would consider me quite despicable.

 

Strangely, for someone who doesn't shoot and who would never want to deliberately kill small animals, I think it's much more defensible to shoot and kill an animal than keep fish trapped in an inescapable environment, with terrible water quality, nowhere near enough natural food, in immense competition with other fish because of huge overstocking, and subject to the stress of repeated capture by people who barely know what they're doing.

i think possibly i agree with you more than disagree. in the end i settled for angling because it was more pleasurable. i love to fish for wild fish. really it was a knee jerk reaction to the news of the stag. and whilst sportsman is no doubt right with his other set of circumstances for shooting pheasant so am i with mine.

 

it's a hard distinction to draw, but whilst our hunting was at base level pest control, your right, we could never eat all we shot so i stand correctly accused.

 

i stand by what i feel about the stag though. generally weak animals are culled by professional stalkers.

 

it was never really meant to be anything other than a comment on how disgusting elements of beautiful things come to the fore when broken down to the base line of 'how much money will i get for doing....'

 

on a lighter note my girlfriend randomly picked up a fishing mag i used to get when i was a kid the other day. i swear a couple of the pro's holding products up and smiling had that same spooky look as the pilots shot down over kuwait that time and forced to gone on telly to say everything was ok

[Sportsman]

I used to work with a guy who was very anti. He would sound off at great length(particularly at me) on how "cruel" it was to go out shooting rabbits or birds.

With his next breath he would regale us with stories of how he had been out the previous night for a Chicken Tika Marsarla.

I'm not sure where he thought the chicken came from but in those days I was pretty sure where my meat came from.

Alas, these days not able to shoot anymore but I still try to buy meat where I know the history.

Today at the market I bought chicken and guinea fowl from the farmer who hatched and produced them