The Palomar Knot.................

[Dick Dastardly]

Sorry DG missed that one.About 18 months ago I had a spool of the 100lb Stealth sent to me.Cant remember the exact diameter but it was qouted as being the same as 20lb mono.After using it it became apparent that Stealth was to Spiderwire what Ripcord SI was to Ripcord.Just the next generation of the same product.Even the points that made it so were the same ie teflon coating as opposed to wax and a much tighter weave which subsequently lead to a smaller diameter.I must admit to prefering tighter woven braids as they tend to behave a lot better,in fact very similar to mono.But once again we get back to the issue of Abrassion resistance.In theory the improved braids should have had an improved resistance but in practice this proved untrue.I was sent the braid by a guide I know in the US who had been sent several batchs from the manufacturer/distributer(?)when I sent him my findings he said they echoed all the other testers.I believe there is another generation just around the corner where the abrassion problem has been addressed with rather more effort than the previous search for the ultimate thin braid.I look forward to seeing if they have sorted it.At the risk of becomming boring I think that Stealth properly selected by diameter is fine but as this thread shows people will still buy it by BS and all of the low diameter problems they are allready experiencing will just be magnified.

 

Jeepster with regard to the tape for backing.I still prefer to have the "insurance" of some line behind the braid,just in case! Not much ever wrote on most packaging.Most of what I refer to comes from productlaunchs (a big thing in the US but not so in depth in this country)

 

Oh out of interest despite the "poor" reviews from all the Stealth field testers it was still put on the market!Then again the product wasnt flawed just the thinking behind it I suppose?

[Rob Ward]

Don't mean to be Pedantic Budgie but I could swear blind you recommended the Fox braids (Trollmaster & Driftmaster) for Piking in a recent thread - correct me if I'm wrong but Trollmaster is 20lb breaking strain!?!?

[poledark]

Budgie, it is not the crossing over when twice thro eye that is a problem, quite the opposite in fact. One turn trapping another and stopping the line from slipping is good news for a knot.

 

Strangulation is not the same as cutting through, just examine a normal blood knot tied in nylon and the strangulation is easily visible. It is caused by the material slipping and gradually tightening the coils and subsequently strangling itself.

As I have said before, stop slippage and you stop strangulation, I did not say they were the same thing.

 

The No knot knot relies on the fact that the overlapping last coil traps the underlying ones and stops slipping, and the harder you pull then the more the coils are trapped.....perfection!

 

And at the end of the day it is testing that counts and ALL my tests prove that twice thro eye improves knot strength regardless of the material used.

 

One other thing, I can never understand the logic that says that .015 braid is any different than .015 nylon when it comes to "lifting scales " on fish. I have even heard it said by one club official that braid can "cut half the face off a carp"

 

Den.

[The Diamond Geezer]

quote:

---

Originally posted by poledark:

One other thing, I can never understand the logic that says that .015 braid is any different than .015 nylon when it comes to "lifting scales " on fish. I have even heard it said by one club official that braid can "cut half the face off a carp" Den.

---

Den, Further to your comment (above) I have just been speaking on the phone to a fisheries manager where braids are banned and he says that they've done it because their pits are gravel and very abrasive and that thin braids are not good compared with monos i.e. the rule is to protect their carp from trailing around with braids that have abraided-through on the gravel and other snags

 

DG

 

[ 30. October 2003, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: The Diamond Geezer ]

[The Diamond Geezer]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BUDGIE:

I think that Stealth properly selected by diameter is fine but as this thread shows people will still buy it by BS and all of the low diameter problems they are already experiencing, will just be magnified.

---

Budgie

 

Thanks for your feedback on SW Stealth, I have to say that the spools I have received in the last couple of months appear better than those of about a year ago. Nice tight weave, easy casting etc.

 

But what are all of the low diameter problems that you mention that others are experiencing? After-all, no-one buys braid for its abrasion resistance, do they? And I think the knots issue originally raised by Rob, has been well aired and covered, if (k)not totally sorted, as has, I think, the BS issue too. What other problems are there?

 

DG

 

[ 30. October 2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: The Diamond Geezer ]

[Dick Dastardly]

Yes Rob you have me there! I used the 30lb Fox braid but could not remember if it was the Troll or Drift version (one being 20lb and the other 30lb)Much to my suprise I found it to be quite good.As said a bit expensive for what it is but mine was at trade so didnt realy matter! I used it for a couple of seasons for bait fishing from the bank and would have no problems reccomending it.Not a particularly low diameter braid.

 

Den thank you.I misinterpreted the SLIPPAGE=STRANGULATION part of your post.I see what you are saying.The problem of the line crossing itself with a twice through the eye method is debateable but I think this whole issue can be avoided by just doubling the braid before passing it through the eye and tying the knot.I prefer a Grinner for what its worth.

 

DG,I was about to write lines and lines about the problems you get with ultra low diameter braids then realised that they are all down to the main point we both agree on,the lack of abrassion resistance!As for the fact that we dont buy braid for its abrassion resistance,well Im glad that people are starting to realise that!A lot of people mistook the manufacturs on that one!

 

The lifting of scales buisness and cheesewire effect are all irelevant debates in my opinion as they can (if they exist at all) both be avoided by a leader or tubing.( I use both just in case!)In the late 80's some of us were using a matirel used for stringing bows (as in bow and arrow) for snag leaders,this was made from Kevlar.Similar worries then.Once again took no risks and just covered the first 3-4'with tubing.(this gear had a very flat profile)

 

The Cats I catch obviously wouldnt suffer from problems with scales but they do get marked by the line.Braid does not apear to mark them any worse than mono (of the same diameter)

 

[ 30. October 2003, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: BUDGIE ]

[Woodzzz]

Nash Bullet Braid and Dynon SK are among the better braids IMO.

[The Diamond Geezer]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BUDGIE:

DG, I was about to write lines and lines about the problems you get with ultra low diameter braids then realised that they are all down to the main point we both agree on, the lack of abrasion resistance! As for the fact that we don't buy braid for its abrassion resistance, well I'm glad that people are starting to realise that! A lot of people mistook the manufacturers on that one!

---

Budgie

 

Mistook is putting it nicely and mildly. The fact is that the (early) marketing claims for abrasion resistance for many Spectra & Dyneema braids & fusion lines were not only misleading, they were just plain false

:mad:

 

DG

[Dick Dastardly]

I can see why you say that DG but in all fairness I think that the claims to abraission resistance were made in reference(or should I say in comparrison) to the existing braids on the US market.Lets not forget braid in its many forms has been about on the US scene for nearly 50 years now!Us being so far behind here in the UK were merely mistaken rather than mislead.Even the tackle dealers and experts didnt intentionly mislead just passed on second hand info as their own experience!Im being very generous this morning DG!!!

[The Diamond Geezer]

quote:

---

Originally posted by BUDGIE:

the tackle dealers and experts didn't intentionly mislead, just passed-on second-hand info as their own experience!

---

Yeah, and I'm Prince Philip! And where have I experienced that phenomenum before on this very Forum? Maybe it was re: a certain review of PowerPro

 

Personally I regard anything that's deliberately printed on a product's packaging in order to market & sell the product, as being intentional .. it certainly doesn't slip into the text on its own and accidentally. As for BS claims, the recent EFTTA tests (see separate thread here ), prove my point.

 

Anyway, re: abrasion resistance etc., there are some ace tests by Dave Barham right here and here

 

and if you combine those pukka test results with the graph below

 

 

which has been in the public domain for yonks, it's plain for everyone to see (those who can be bothered to read, anyway) that it's obvious that high-tenacity braids & fusion lines have never ever had much abrasion resistance cf. most half-decent monos of the same BS. I agree that you could argue that it would be good to also test lines (monos, braids & fusions) of the same diameter but then things would get a tad silly because you'd be testing 25 lb BS mono against 80 lb braid. For me, the big advantage of braids is their high tenacity cf. monos, and that's what I, and I suspect many other braid users, like to take advantage of.

 

Abrasion resistance of any line must be a function of, inter alia, the polymer, the way it's extruded and/or woven, plus the mass i.e. cross-sectional area, the latter being a function of diameter (x length) .. so by my calculations, an HPPE braid with a diameter of say 0.20 mm is never going to have the abrasion resistance of a mono with a diameter of 0.35 mm, especially if it's one of the 3rd generation monos like Sufix Synergy or Tritanium, or a 4th generation one like Shimano Catana ( have you read the tests in Total Carp, October 2003?)

 

Braids have their place in my fishing for their high tenacity (low diameter) for longer easier casting, and monos like Catana are there because of their true abrasion resistance where it's truly needed i.e. for carping in gravel-pits but not for every-day lure-fishing.

 

I should add though, that the abbreviation mono itself is a loose term and can also be misleading because some folks use it synonymously with nylon when in fact it refers to a monofilament (as opposed to a multi-filament) line which can/could be nylon, or nylon co-polymer (6 & 66) or fluorocarbon or what-have-you

 

Of course the word braid is equally loose, because it can refer to multifilaments of 100% Spectra or Dyneema HPPE, or Dacron (polyester) or silk or fluorocarbon or aramid fibres (nylon or Kevlar)

 

DG

 

P.S. Budgie, when you say "I was sent the braid by a guide I know in the US who had been sent several batches from the manufacturer/distributor(?) ... when I sent him my findings he said they echoed all the other testers." ... what actual tests, other than some empirical fishing ones, do you actually do that consitute your findings? For example, do you do any of the pre-fishing tests that Poledark, I & others do e.g. see here ?

 

[ 30. October 2003, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: The Diamond Geezer ]