Livebaiting for pike

[Guest tony jolley]

I for one can find no words to put eelfisher down on his post, in fact I will go the other way and say that I support all of his post, and say that it is easy to see why he is the secaratery of the N,A,C and thus commands the respect of myself and all who know him.

Alan!

there are some good points in your last post and I can not see anywere that I can disagree with what you say,

Tony

 

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Tony B.T Jolley

[Guest Peter Waller]

All pike anglers are doing is asking their fellow anglers to support them re livebaiting. They are asking this because the knock on effects of a live-bait with fish ban will probably effect all of us one way or another. Devided we fall & all that - - - - - - . My questions have all related to how, not should. Ask yourselves, what's a live-bait? Then go out & do something for angling, support the pike anglers and, in doing so, support yourself.

[Guest trent.barbeler]

In the pit of the valley, the peaceful towns folk have become restless and have begun arguing amongst themselves.

 

Oblivious to these once peaceful folk, over the hills surrounding the valley, a terrible army is approaching chanting as they ride, "death to the peaceful folk".

 

Now I dont live bait. So what should I do or say?

 

Defend the pike and predator anglers?

Indeed, I can remember when I asked the SACG for support in retaining the rivers close season on behalf of the Barbel Catchers Club, a certain high official of the PAC voted to get rid of the rivers close season because he wanted to go fishing for pike on the fenland drains in the months of the closed season.

 

So, given his obvious "none support" for me and those I represented at the time, should I now support him in his?

 

One would easily be forgiven for asking why should you?

 

Well, the reality is, I have no choice.

 

Why is it, that some cannot see what lies ahead for us all if we do not stand together.

 

This issue relates to live bait fishing in Scotland. Fortunately, the Scottish pike anglers are a formidable lot who are more than capable of defending themselves properly.

 

Those who are against live baiting must look further than their own opinions because this issue is about far more than live baiting. Perhaps not know, but it is going to be in the near future.

 

Are we now going to start running giving away ground as we run in the hope that we ourselves wont be touched by those who are pursuing. Do any out there really think that their axes or arrows will not be aimed at us all!

 

Total solidarity is the only way to defend ourselves properly against any threat to angling.

 

Unfortunately, this sometimes means putting differences aside.

 

Please support the predator anglers just as much as you would support yourselves.

 

The stark reality is; If you dont stand together now and always for angling, we will remain weak and feeble against our enemies.

 

But, before I leave this post, a point worth remembering by some now looking for support.

 

Unity is round. What is round rolls and comes around. "Support" is a two edged sword that cuts both ways.

 

Regards,

 

Lee.

[Guest Peter Waller]

Interesting point that Lee, Trent Barbeller, makes re the high up PAC official & the close season. A severe case of double standards amongst many pike anglers re the close season. Always has been, for as long as I can remember. Nipping off to Ireland or Scotland during the English Close Season has long been a part of piking tradition.

[Guest SAMCATGETTER]

Gentlemen, Livebaiting is a traditional mathod for taking fish that is thousands of years old. As for reasons "WHY" to use livebait?..It has always been the most effective, and reliable way to produce food for the table. (for relative species) It simply works! As for those that dont agree with livebaits based on the issue that it is cruel, I will respect your privelage to have this opinion, and if I ever fish with any of you I would not use this method of baiting so as not to offend. But hopefully you would respect my opinion, that this an acceptable way for me to take fish when I am not in your presence. The facts of nature are always right in front of us. Fish eat other fish, day in, day out, in the millions, world wide. This is nothing unnatural or cruel. (not knocking any methods here)But what is natural about boilies, lures, fish traps, nets, etc...Live baits are simply the most natural presentations in life, and these other methods just happen to work too. Lets not pick each other apart here on methods. Those of you who dont want to livebait, please do not use this method. Use your chosen nethods, and please share with me on both your success's, and failures. But let me chose my own methods, so long as they are not unfair to the target species, and still let me get a good nights sleep after a good fishing trip...Tolerance please...Sam

[Guest TheDacer]

Firstly, as I'm the only person who has written to this thread opposed to livebaitng - will you please all stop panicking about 'divided we fall' and all that sort of stuff. On this issue at least, I seem to be alone!

 

Secondly, for those who have decided to question my "angling" morals, I'll tell you a short story:-

 

I took two little ones fishing by the river, we were watching someone who was using livebait for Zander - anyway, the chap cast, and because he was fishing in what was a fairly snaggy swim the fish ended up being cast into a tree.

 

Attached, needless to say, with wire trace. He could neither retrive nor kill the live fish.

 

I tried to. But I couldn't reach it either. And at the point at which one of the little ones eyes clearly started to fill up - I got myself out of there.

 

Now OK - call me an **** for letting the kids watch someone livebait. (Wny? Is it a sight for adults eyes only?) But if I'd had my doubts about the method before this sight, seeing all of that actually happen to a fair sized Roach which the kids would have been pleased to catch... that was enough for me.

 

So to all those of you who say "whats the difference between hooking a fish and casting one" - here's your answer.

 

I've never left a fish hanging from a tree to be pecked alive by the birds.

 

OK?

 

Finally, I do accept the point made by some of you that no ground should be conceded to the anti-angler mob.

 

However, I should stress that I do not regards my attitude towards livebaiting as giving ground to them.

 

I couldn't give a monkeys what that load of tossers think. I, personally, think livebaiting is - or can be - cruel. I also think it is - in almost all circumstances - unnecessary. And finally I think it is a contradiction. Why unhook and care for small fish one day if you intend to livebait them the next?

[Guest Alan Pearce]

Dacer, whilst respecting your own opinion, as a live baiter myself I would ask you to also respect the methods of angling used by others. If for no other reason other than to support the sport as a whole.

 

Alan.

[Guest SAMCATGETTER]

Originally posted by TheDacer:

Firstly, as I'm the only person who has written to this thread opposed to livebaitng - will you please all stop panicking about 'divided we fall' and all that sort of stuff.  On this issue at least, I seem to be alone!  

 

Secondly, for those who have decided to question my "angling" morals, I'll tell you a short story:-

 

I took two little ones fishing by the river, we were watching someone who was using livebait for Zander - anyway, the chap cast, and because he was fishing in what was a fairly snaggy swim the fish ended up being cast into a tree.  

 

Attached, needless to say, with wire trace.  He could neither retrive nor kill the live fish.

 

I tried to.  But I couldn't reach it either.  And at the point at which one of the little ones eyes clearly started to fill up - I got myself out of there.

 

Now OK - call me an **** for letting the kids watch someone livebait.  (Wny?  Is it a sight for adults eyes only?) But if I'd had my doubts about the method before this sight, seeing all of that actually happen to a fair sized Roach which the kids would have been pleased to catch... that was enough for me.

 

So to all those of you who say "whats the difference between hooking a fish and casting one" - here's your answer.

 

I've never left a fish hanging from a tree to be pecked alive by the birds.

 

OK?

 

Finally, I do accept the point made by some of you that no ground should be conceded to the anti-angler mob.  

 

However, I should stress that I do not regards my attitude towards livebaiting as giving ground to them.

 

I couldn't give a monkeys what that load of tossers think.  I, personally, think livebaiting is - or can be - cruel.  I also think it is - in almost all circumstances - unnecessary.  And finally I think it is a contradiction.  Why unhook and care for small fish one day if you intend to livebait them the next?

 

Hello TheDacer, First sir, let me offer that you should not feel alienated here, as you are not "alone". You have the right to your opinions, and we all have the right to support your privlage of expression, to express your opinion. (DONT WE GUYS!) We dont all have to agree with you, but we are all anglers here, and you should not feel disassociated from the rest of us, because you feel that your opinion is not acceptable to the majority, or even a few, (IF that is truly the case. As for the "secondly" (those who may seem to question your "angling morals")..A great shame on them! You are a free man, with values that you have been raised with, and learned all your life to be true to. I just dont feel that anyone has the right to be judgemental on this, because their chosen methods are different than yours. I will also offer though, that the kids reactions may have been the result of what they were taught, and also as a response to what they percieved was a negative reaction by you, to what you witnessed, on your part. Not judging here, but only offering a possible explaination, for their reaction. As for the unfortunate fish that got caught in the tree..Accidents often happen when fishing, that are unintentional, and cannot usually be helped. This is not common with consientious anglers, and youngins should be schooled on this from the beginning. I do not agree with you that live baits are wrong in any way, but I will still back you up all the way, to have your own opinion, no matter how much you are opposed to mine. Thank you for your time...Sam

[Guest Leon Roskilly]

I don't believe that fish can feel 'pain'.

 

The areas of the brain in which mammals experience what we know as pain are simply not present in fish.

 

Land creatures trip over, and scrape themselves against hard objects. They need to avoid situations where damage can so easily occur, simply by sitting down on a spike etc.

 

Fish are bouyed against gravity, they cannnot trip and hurt themselves.

 

In their environment, sharp rocks and stones are worn smooth, plant life is soft. They don't have the same need for pain as creatures such as us, who evolved to leave the water and enter a world where gravity rules, and rocks are sharp (not to mention hot!).

 

Land creatures feel pain, so land based life forms have evolved to exploit their ability to feel pain for their own protection.

 

Thorns, brambles, stinging vegetation, stinging insects etc.

 

As far as I'm aware, no life forms have evolved to protect themselves by causing pain to fish (Though many have developed poisons etc to disable/kill them). Nothing just stings or pricks them and send them on their way.

 

Remarkable! when you think that fish, and the creatures which share their environment evolved many millions of years before land based creatures first evolved.

 

If fish felt pain, you would expect their world to be full of organisms designed by evolution to deliver pain to them by now.

 

Perch spines, stickleback spines?

 

Ignored by pike (perch are one of the best livebaits!).

 

Spines may help to prevent engorgement. They may deter herons, otters etc. But believe me, no fishy predator is afraid of eating them.

 

So if fish don't feel pain where's the cruelty?

 

Fish do not possess emotions. The areas of the brain responsible for emotional responses (such as fear and dread) first appear only in the reptilian brain. Earlier evolved creatures, such as fish and amphibians lack any emotion.

 

If fish cannot be afraid, worried, anxious etc. Where's the cruelty.

 

Fish have no memory, at least not as we experience it.

 

Their ability to avoid baits etc, is probably no more than 'habituation', and as individuals do repeatedly seem to fall for the same bait, even within minutes of coming off! Any habituation is seemingly not that effective.

 

So, they don't feel pain, they don't possess emotions, they have no memory to speak of, and they certainly have no capacity to care.

 

Stick a hook in a mouse, and let it swim round for 20 minutes.

 

That would be cruel.

 

A mouse would be in pain, frightened, and remembering the pain of the hook first going in, feeling increasingly hopeless.

 

If I found someone live baiting with a mouse, the RSPCA would be summoned without hesitation!

 

But livebaiting with a worm, or a fish?

 

That's not cruelty, it simply cannot be!

 

The problem is that we humans (and some of the apes) possess a unique ability to 'mind read'.

 

That is, we see someone else engaged in an activity, and we 'know' what they are experiencing, what they are thinking.

 

We see someone with a nail through their finger and 'know' what they are suffering.

 

We see a fish with a hook inserted into its back and 'know' how it feels. We don't, we only think we do.

 

I see a plant drooping its leaves for want of water, and hasten to relieve its suffering!! Simply the response of a 'mind reading' creature with a conscience.

 

Actually, I prefer not to live-bait.

 

I very rarely do.

 

(IMHO, it's too easy in most circumstances, a bit like fishing for trout with a worm. The livebait does the angling, not the angler - give me a lure rod any day).

 

I hate putting a hook through a squirming worm!

 

But I approach the task with my brain, not my 'mind reader's' emotion.

 

The anti's favourite saying 'If fish could scream, no one would go fishing' makes as much sense as saying that 'if spaghetti could scream, no one would order spaghetti bolognase'

 

If I thought that it was possible to be 'cruel' to a fish, I would give up immediately. (IMO Anyone who thinks that it is possible to be cruel to a fish should give it up!)

 

I handle fish gently, use an unhooking mat, treat cormorant wounds etc with Kli-ik.

 

Not to be kind, but for the same reason that I water a drooping plant.

 

To keep it healthy and alive, to make me feel good! 'Kindness' and 'cruelty' don't come into it.

 

I see little difference between anglers who would call for a ban on other anglers using livebait and non-anglers would call for a ban on sticking hooks in fish.

 

Both camps have the best of intentions at heart, to bring an end to what they see as 'cruelty', but IMO both camps views are born in ignorance, prejudice and the willingness to demonise their target and to sacrifice the interests of others to their own irrational sensitivities.

 

Anyway, that's my opinion!!

 

If your's is different, I respect that and accept that. It would be a dreary place if we all agreed all of the time!!

 

Just don't ask me to accept calls for a ban on livebaiting without arguing my own position.

 

 

Tight Lines - leon

 

[This message has been edited by Leon Roskilly (edited 21 August 2001).]

[Guest Alan Pearce]

Well put Leon.