Predator Angling Collective Fund

[GlennB]

i think we get fortune cookies from the same chinese takeaway in frome

 

The one in Fromefield is well good. Free lychees with every order over £5 as I recall.

[slodger]

Thus it is that in war the victorious strategist

only seeks battle after the victory has been won,

whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights

and afterwards looks for victory."

 

Sun Tzu - The Art of War.

 

You can tell they eat a lot of fishfingers these Chinese blokes.....

 

 

 

And here's an even more appropriate one:

 

And we should never count the cost

Or worry that we'll fall

It's better to have fought and lost

Than not have fought at all

 

Anyone care to show their age and name that tune??

[Peter Waller]

Chris, I probably am wrong, infact I'd love to think that I am. But I think we need to look at the whole matter very carefully before we, angling, nail our colours to the mast on this matter.

 

I happen to think that there are other matters in angling that are less likely to stand up to close scrutiny than livebaiting, but livebaiting is very visable, and hard to defend, and is an obvious target.

 

Whatever we do, we have to be right. There are times in life when it pays to stategically loose one battle as a means of winning a greater one.

 

In reality, how many people would genuinly loose out if there were a livebait ban? How many people actually do it?

 

 

Lot of wisdom in what Jeepster has written on this thread.

[GlennB]

Seriously tho - firstly let me make it clear that while I rarely livebait I have no problems at all with the practice itself.

 

However, "educating" Joe Public on this issue might easily do more harm than good. A non-angling Joe might well have a vague vision of a fish being reeled in, unhooked, and then returned pretty much none the worse for wear. So far so good. Trying to educate Joe on livebaiting could make him aware of a practice he doesn't even know exists. Let's face it, sticking two trebles in a small roach and having it haul around a big pike float would *not* appeal to a lot of people for whom the simpler vision of catching a fish on a hook with a maggot or bit of bread is no big deal.

 

Now you or I might justify livebaiting on the grounds that fish are extremely poorly endowed with pain-receptors and that, in any case, they don't have the brain structures or capacity to actually experience distress. But for Joe Public this is starting to get a bit deep and the whole argument becomes vulnerable to emotive (but effective) attack from the antis. (It also superficially resembles the "the fox dies instantly" line of argument). To the uninvolved, livebaiting *does* look a nasty business, no?

 

Unfortunately (?) there are also plenty within the angling world itself that find the practice distasteful. In other words we're a group that's already split on this issue.

 

Strikes me that politics would be a more profitable way to go than "education".

[Dick Dastardly]

Apease the antis? put angling in a better light with those who are against us? I will say but two words "lead shot"..........................

Edited December 6, 2005 by BUDGIE

[DavyR]

And we should never count the cost

Or worry that we'll fall

It's better to have fought and lost

Than not have fought at all

 

Anyone care to show their age and name that tune??

 

It's "The Flashing Blade", isn't it? What a blast from the past...

Edited December 6, 2005 by DavyR

[slodger]

'However, "educating" Joe Public on this issue might easily do more harm than good. A non-angling Joe might well have a vague vision of a fish being reeled in, unhooked, and then returned pretty much none the worse for wear. So far so good. Trying to educate Joe on livebaiting could make him aware of a practice he doesn't even know exists. Let's face it, sticking two trebles in a small roach and having it haul around a big pike float would *not* appeal to a lot of people for whom the simpler vision of catching a fish on a hook with a maggot or bit of bread is no big deal.'

 

I agree with that verbatum Glen!

 

I've already put the very same point of view over on the PnP site. Nobody will convince me that the non fishing public would fail to be offended by the concept of LB, if it were ever put to them strongly enough for them to take notice.

 

However I think we are in a catch 22 situation. Losing the right to live-bait will undoubtedly start the slow but inevitable descent that will eventually see angling abolished. I know we're talking a timescale that takes us outside of my lifetime, but it will be hastened, IMO, by the loss, or worse still, the concession of LB.

 

 

 

 

'In reality, how many people would genuinly loose out if there were a livebait ban? How many people actually do it?'

 

Your's is an understandable view Peter, not one I subscribe to, but based on a fair rationale. However, the above quote does have me baffled. Are we to concede any aspect of our sport that isn't upheld by anglers one and all? Because we'd pretty soon be left with nothing. Surely the great divisions we've all witnessed over the years between our various political bodies are testimony to the opportunity for disunity that a diverse sport such as angling offers?

 

It's "The Flashing Blade", isn't it? What a blast from the past...

 

That's the one Davy! Whatever happened to third rate BBC overseas borrowings, with their impossibly bad dubbing eh??

 

Summer holidays aint what they used to be!

[jeepster]

Seriously tho - firstly let me make it clear that while I rarely livebait I have no problems at all with the practice itself.

 

However, "educating" Joe Public on this issue might easily do more harm than good. A non-angling Joe might well have a vague vision of a fish being reeled in, unhooked, and then returned pretty much none the worse for wear. So far so good. Trying to educate Joe on livebaiting could make him aware of a practice he doesn't even know exists. Let's face it, sticking two trebles in a small roach and having it haul around a big pike float would *not* appeal to a lot of people for whom the simpler vision of catching a fish on a hook with a maggot or bit of bread is no big deal.

 

Now you or I might justify livebaiting on the grounds that fish are extremely poorly endowed with pain-receptors and that, in any case, they don't have the brain structures or capacity to actually experience distress. But for Joe Public this is starting to get a bit deep and the whole argument becomes vulnerable to emotive (but effective) attack from the antis. (It also superficially resembles the "the fox dies instantly" line of argument). To the uninvolved, livebaiting *does* look a nasty business, no?

 

Unfortunately (?) there are also plenty within the angling world itself that find the practice distasteful. In other words we're a group that's already split on this issue.

 

Strikes me that politics would be a more profitable way to go than "education".

 

 

for the record, when i spoke of education earlier, i meant educating people with influence, law makers, policy makers etc, not joe public, who is best kept of out matters like this.

[Dick Dastardly]

Please excuse the copy and paste but this recent post I put on another site sums up my veiws on live baiting and my reasons why all anglers regardless of personal use of it or not need to support it.

 

Considering the current attempt to push through a “No Live baiting” rule in Scotland this is a very topical poll!

 

For or against? Sadly this decision is made by a lot of people on purely emotive and sentimental reasons. It is therefore very hard to reason with anti live baiters as they refuse to see the facts. Many don’t actually fish for predators so in practical terms it doesn’t affect them. They use old clichéd pseudo scientific arguments to try and back up their emotional argument. As I said very hard to reason using hard facts against emotion.

 

A lot of people say that live baiting is cruel because you are sticking hooks into a live fish. I thought that was what we do every time we catch a fish? The whole business of whether fish feel pain or not is an often argued subject with many scientific studies having been carried out. Sadly none of these seem to be in agreement! The issue of is it cruel or not is one that each angler has to personally decide for them self, much as you have to make your decision in the early days of your angling career as to whether angling or not is cruel. This is a personal choice and one which I respect each individuals choice. If live baiting is not for you then fine but please also respect the choice of others who wish to do so. For me there is no difference in casting out and sticking a hook in a fish and sticking a hook in a fish then casting out.

 

Many say that they think it would be a good idea for angling to ban live baiting as it would appease the antis. I feel by doing this we would be simply falling into their hands and admitting that we accept sticking a hook into a fish is cruel. Make no mistake these people will never be on our side. It would pay to remember that they want angling banned in all its forms regardless of bait used. On the subject of bait what is live bait? After all maggots and worms are alive, should these be banned to?

 

At least to their credit the antis are consistent in there belief that angling in general is cruel. Sadly consistency is some what lacking in many anglers arguments! What sort of message does it send out when some anglers will happily use live bait but say they only lip hook them? Same as the angler who will quite happily use a roach for bait but not a carp! For the angler who thinks it is acceptable to lip hook a live but not hook it in the body (and for that matter all anglers who think it is ok to hook fish in the mouth when catching them but not to use them as bait) I will ask one question, where would be more sensitive the lip area or the back? I think we all know the answer! At this point let me point out that I made my decision a long time ago and I’m happy enough in the belief that fish don’t feel pain as we do regardless of where they are hooked. Once again if it is not for you then say so and I will respect your view. What I will not respect is some one making false statements to support their decision or trying to remove my right to choose.

 

Common examples of this are the often made remark that live baiting is unnecessary to catch pike. Yes I agree that on most waters pike can be caught on dead baits or lures but not on all! Some trout reservoirs I could take you to you could fish with deads all year and you wouldn’t get a take! Deads also catch on my local river but at a ratio of around 1 fish on a dead to every 30+ on lives! Nothing wrong with deads they are a valuable part of a pikers armoury but they aren’t the be all and end all. Catch at any cost? No certainly not but why should I have to restrict myself so much? Cheese catches roach but how would the average roach fisher feel if maggots and casters were banned and cheese was all he was allowed?

 

Some say it is unsporting. Well I can’t really comment on this one as I don’t understand the argument at all!

 

Live baiting spreads diseases. Well I won’t go in to the rights or wrongs of transporting fish as this is another personal choice as to whether you accept the rules on this issue. Let it be enough to say that the law says you must not do it and that it is quite legal to use fish you have caught as bait on the same water. Also it is a simple fact that no proven case of fish translocation or spread of disease has ever been put down to anglers live baiting. That said it pays to be sensible and only use healthy fish, after all no pike angler I know would want to be responsible for the spread of disease or translocation of a species.

 

Taking fish for live bait spoils other anglers sport. A bit of common sense and consideration does need to be shown here. A group of regular pike anglers taking 20 baits or so each every week over the winter season could have an effect on a small water with low stocking densities, but then it’s a lot easier to get baits from a large water with loads in so it is in effect a drop in the ocean! Worth bearing in mind though. Rainbow trout from your local hatchery won’t affect your local ponds stocks! They are cheap enough and make strong baits you can even get all the correct paper work in theory but in practice most local EA offices will say not to bother!

 

Using 1lb roach as baits. No way is this acceptable it would get up my nose let alone a dedicated roach anglers! Totally unnecessary as well. Over large baits are merely a waste of quality fish. Big baits are harder to use and harder to set the hooks with. They certainly don’t necessarily attract bigger fish but if you feel you need a large visual bait then why not use a skimmer? Maybe not as strong but plenty of them and wont be missed in the ecosystem as much as a 1lb roach. Anyway I wish I knew a water where I could go and catch a tub of 1lb roach that easily! In reality I don’t think it happens as much (if at all) as some anti live baiters would have us believe.

 

To sum up I made my choice a long time ago and I’m quite happy that live baiting is a perfectly acceptable tactic and no crueller (if cruel at all) than any other angling. For people who aren’t happy to do it then fine that is your choice and I would never pressure you to do so. In these days of the antis growing campaign to get angling banned full stop I feel that all anglers regardless of their personal views on live baiting should stick together and make no concessions to them at all. Like I said what is the difference between casting out and hooking a fish and hooking a fish and casting it out? I’m sure the antis won’t see any.

[Peter Waller]

I can't argue with anything that you have written, Budgie, I really can't.

 

But I am not convincedm one way or the other,yet.

 

I sit on various committees, and whilst anglers are seen as being on the same side as the conservation lobby then we have suitable friends in high places.

 

We lost conservation minded friends when we agreed to drop the close season on still waters. We have lost a few friends on the cormorant issue but most understand our stance on this one. We are certainly loosing friends over our use of long poles on rivers. I wonder, can we class ourselves as conservationists if we continue to kill fish for bait? It does go counter to our demands that we cull cormorants and control other naturel predators because they kill the fish that we wish to catch.

 

As I say, I think we need to look at the rather wider implications of this one before we wade in, all guns blazing.

Edited December 6, 2005 by Peter Waller