If you think commercial fishermen are your ‘enemy’...

[JB]

I'm not sure exactly what damage the under 10's do in my area. The sea certainly isn't teaming with them, and like you say, a lot of them are potting. There are one or two boats that are ruining things for inshore anglers, or to put it another way, inshore angling would improve quite a bit if one or two under 10's were to pack up. Unfortunately, it's these few boats that get the rest of the local commercials a bad name, and the blame for falling fish stocks.

 

Each area has it's own problems I'm sure.

 

Hi Steve,

Rotten apples in a barrel spring to mind. Which you get in all walks of life, but condemning the whole barrel is usually counter-productive.

 

 

Hi Leon,

I have read the letter in FN and I know the area very well. Forty-odd years ago my father was one of the first men to fish that area for prawns. This time of year was always good in that area and twenty-odd boats has always been the norm. I would imagine that several Whitby boats would make up that number. But remember: when they are there, they aren’t anywhere else.

 

Not sure what permits are required, but permits are usually easily obtained. If some vessels don’t have one then it is clearly a job for the NESFC patrol boat. As for ground damage, the bottom in that area is all mud and sand.

 

 

Hi Stavey,

Four hundred-plus boats is a hell of a lot. It sounds as if you have a considerable problem. Do you know how many are full time, how many are working pots, gill nets, trawling or any other method? What percentage of them do you see as rotten apples in the barrel?

 

I very much agree with you about historical right. Unfortunately, it is part of the CFP which at the moment seems to be considered to be written in stone and non-negotiable.

 

What I am trying to find out is what proportion of the British commercial fishing industry is directly at odds with RSA. Reading through the posts on the forum puts me in mind of the 1966 film “The Russians are Coming, the Russians are Coming”. Or the radio broadcast in 1938 by Orson Welles, “The War of the Worlds”. If you think you have an enemy, then find out something concrete about him, don’t act on Internet media hype.

 

 

Hi Muttley,

Wasn’t that quote also used in “The Godfather” movie?

 

JB

[Guest muttley]

Hi Steve,

Rotten apples in a barrel spring to mind. Which you get in all walks of life, but condemning the whole barrel is usually counter-productive.

Hi Leon,

I have read the letter in FN and I know the area very well. Forty-odd years ago my father was one of the first men to fish that area for prawns. This time of year was always good in that area and twenty-odd boats has always been the norm. I would imagine that several Whitby boats would make up that number. But remember: when they are there, they aren’t anywhere else.

 

Not sure what permits are required, but permits are usually easily obtained. If some vessels don’t have one then it is clearly a job for the NESFC patrol boat. As for ground damage, the bottom in that area is all mud and sand.

Hi Stavey,

Four hundred-plus boats is a hell of a lot. It sounds as if you have a considerable problem. Do you know how many are full time, how many are working pots, gill nets, trawling or any other method? What percentage of them do you see as rotten apples in the barrel?

 

I very much agree with you about historical right. Unfortunately, it is part of the CFP which at the moment seems to be considered to be written in stone and non-negotiable.

 

What I am trying to find out is what proportion of the British commercial fishing industry is directly at odds with RSA. Reading through the posts on the forum puts me in mind of the 1966 film “The Russians are Coming, the Russians are Coming”. Or the radio broadcast in 1938 by Orson Welles, “The War of the Worlds”. If you think you have an enemy, then find out something concrete about him, don’t act on Internet media hype.

Hi Muttley,

Wasn’t that quote also used in “The Godfather” movie?

 

JB

Maybe...or it could have been The Codfather LOL

[wurzel]

Hello John

 

Quote

Hi Steve,

Rotten apples in a barrel spring to mind. Which you get in all walks of life, but condemning the whole barrel is usually counter-productive.

 

No rotten apples in our area John all bonifide licenced fishermen, most have been fishing the area for lot longer than I have.

 

It's that perception again.

[JB]

It's that perception again.

Hello Peter,

I agree it appears to be the belief that there are thousands of UK trawlers around our coast going up and down 24/7 “hoovering up” every last fish. (I can’t think what “hoovering” has to do with fishing.)

 

It also seems that every last dhan/ender or pellet the shore anglers see is perceived to be a gill net. I can only speak for the area in which I fish, but by far the vast majority of static gear worked in our area is pots. As you know, the Yorkshire coast at one time was very extensively trawled. However, the fleet has decreased dramatically, with only five boats working locally. With the massive increase of prawn stocks in the North Sea, I predict that within two years the remaining few will be prawn fishing offshore.

 

I can’t speak for any other area, but if the assumption that the decreasing of commercial white fish fishing is good for angling is correct, then things are looking good for the future in the Whitby area. Speaking for the offshore central North Sea, the UK white fish fishing effort is less than 1% of what it used to be.

 

All I am looking for is an honest appraisal of what actually is happening in different areas. Not internet media hype or uninformed speculation or propaganda, which is probably invented by the need-to-manage brigade.

 

JB

[seaside]

Hello Peter,

I agree it appears to be the belief that there are thousands of UK trawlers around our coast going up and down 24/7 “hoovering up” every last fish. (I can’t think what “hoovering” has to do with fishing.)

 

It also seems that every last dhan/ender or pellet the shore anglers see is perceived to be a gill net. I can only speak for the area in which I fish, but by far the vast majority of static gear worked in our area is pots. As you know, the Yorkshire coast at one time was very extensively trawled. However, the fleet has decreased dramatically, with only five boats working locally. With the massive increase of prawn stocks in the North Sea, I predict that within two years the remaining few will be prawn fishing offshore.

 

I can’t speak for any other area, but if the assumption that the decreasing of commercial white fish fishing is good for angling is correct, then things are looking good for the future in the Whitby area. Speaking for the offshore central North Sea, the UK white fish fishing effort is less than 1% of what it used to be.

 

All I am looking for is an honest appraisal of what actually is happening in different areas. Not internet media hype or uninformed speculation or propaganda, which is probably invented by the need-to-manage brigade.

 

JB

 

JB - The west coast of Scotland is another area where most are now engaged in prawn, or as the Scots marketing guys prefer, langoustine.

 

The reason though is that there is little or nothing else to go for - all the demersal and inshore pelagic stocks have been effectively wiped out. The inner clyde is virtually devoid of anything other than juvenile stock. This is neither media hype, uninformed speculation or propaganda - Austen Brown (Clyde Fishermen's Association)

 

“ I will give you a short history of how we have got to where we are. Most of the fish-stocks problems have arisen from the deployment of technology over the past 30 years or so.

 

Cheap fuel has allowed more power to be used to tow bigger nets. The invention of bobbins and rock hoppers allowed fishermen to explore vast areas of hard ground, which had hitherto been breeding-stock reserves similar to the no-take zones that are proposed by some of the Cornishmen.

 

Multiple rigs now allow larger white-fish boats to operate profitably pursuing ground fish and prawns, thereby undermining the markets that are relied on by many of our member fishermen.

 

The invention of the semi-pelagic trawl has almost completely annihilated the former deep-water breeding stocks of cod, hake, haddock and whiting in our area. Fish now have nowhere to hide; they are chased from the shore to the deepest water and virtually everywhere is towed. “

 

So yes, many of the vessels one sees now are chasing langoustine, but it's because there is no real alternative, there aren't enough fish there to make it commercially viable.

 

This has also caused the west coast to lose millions of pounds from its' tourist industry, loads of charter skippers have had to pack it in, some very significant sea angling festivals and competitions are no longer held.

 

It can hardly be surprising that there is a degree of resentment - it may be wrongly directed now but it is understandable, it happened in the past and no one was held accountable; perhaps what's worst is that some of it is still perpetuated today - eg: the exploitation of gravid Spurdog.

[big_cod]

JB - The west coast of Scotland is another area where most are now engaged in prawn, or as the Scots marketing guys prefer, langoustine.

 

The reason though is that there is little or nothing else to go for - all the demersal and inshore pelagic stocks have been effectively wiped out. The inner clyde is virtually devoid of anything other than juvenile stock. This is neither media hype, uninformed speculation or propaganda - Austen Brown (Clyde Fishermen's Association)

 

“ I will give you a short history of how we have got to where we are. Most of the fish-stocks problems have arisen from the deployment of technology over the past 30 years or so.

 

Cheap fuel has allowed more power to be used to tow bigger nets. The invention of bobbins and rock hoppers allowed fishermen to explore vast areas of hard ground, which had hitherto been breeding-stock reserves similar to the no-take zones that are proposed by some of the Cornishmen.

 

Multiple rigs now allow larger white-fish boats to operate profitably pursuing ground fish and prawns, thereby undermining the markets that are relied on by many of our member fishermen.

 

The invention of the semi-pelagic trawl has almost completely annihilated the former deep-water breeding stocks of cod, hake, haddock and whiting in our area. Fish now have nowhere to hide; they are chased from the shore to the deepest water and virtually everywhere is towed. “

 

So yes, many of the vessels one sees now are chasing langoustine, but it's because there is no real alternative, there aren't enough fish there to make it commercially viable.

 

This has also caused the west coast to lose millions of pounds from its' tourist industry, loads of charter skippers have had to pack it in, some very significant sea angling festivals and competitions are no longer held.

 

It can hardly be surprising that there is a degree of resentment - it may be wrongly directed now but it is understandable, it happened in the past and no one was held accountable; perhaps what's worst is that some of it is still perpetuated today - eg: the exploitation of gravid Spurdog.

 

There seems to be a lot of sense in that post seaside.

 

Seaside the locals who are working the prawn grounds to the north of whitby are going haywire because of the intense fishing on the prawn grounds by boats which are using as many 4 nets at any one time with massive catching caperbilities there is only one way the prawn fishing is going to go eventually and that is up the creek, most of the boats that work the prawn grounds north of whitby are fairly small boats who make a nice living out of the job but are now been invaded by boats which in time will do massive damage to the nerdrop population boats as big as 90ft are fishing on prawns no wonder the small boys are having a winge there livelyhood is at stake here.

Edited November 20, 2006 by big_cod

[seaside]

There seems to be a lot of sense in that post seaside.

 

Seaside the locals who are working the prawn grounds to the north of whitby are going haywire because of the intense fishing on the prawn grounds by boats which are using as many 4 nets at any one time with massive catching caperbilities there is only one way the prawn fishing is going to go eventually and that is up the creek, most of the boats that work the prawn grounds north of whitby are fairly small boats who make a nice living out of the job but are now been invaded by boats which in time will do massive damage to the nerdrop population boats as big as 90ft are fishing on prawns no wonder the small boys are having a winge there livelyhood is at stake here.

 

I understand the smaller guys getting upset, it's happening everywhere, and they are really losing out because with so many prawn on the market, prices are falling and more and more often the smaller prawn are being discarded because there's just no market for them.

 

But they are not the only discards, tons of immature fish are also discarded which adds to the effects felt by the smaller inshore boats as well as RSA. What I really find annoying is that the techniques exist to exploit many of the fisheries with minimal bycatch, the prawn fishery in Norway manages to do it successfully, why can't the British ?

 

Regular surveys are taken in the Clyde fishery, on-board a commercial vessel, these show in an average year for the prawn fishery 2925 tons of prawns landed / 418 tons prawns discarded / 715 tons fish landed / 1614 tons fish discarded

 

The fish discards are juveniles of the demersal species, 1614 tons at 8oz to the fish = over 7 million fish that don't get a chance to breed. !!

 

This isn't stuff invented by anyone, it's happening now, it's documented and it's just history repeating itself, a new stock identified and now being exploited by many without any thought for the future.

 

How can anyone give respect to an industry which seems bent on chasing profit without taking the steps necessary to ensure it's own future, even if that means screwing it up for all, including the smaller of their own kind ?

[Leon Roskilly]

There seems to be a lot of sense in that post seaside.

 

Seaside the locals who are working the prawn grounds to the north of whitby are going haywire because of the intense fishing on the prawn grounds by boats which are using as many 4 nets at any one time with massive catching caperbilities there is only one way the prawn fishing is going to go eventually and that is up the creek, most of the boats that work the prawn grounds north of whitby are fairly small boats who make a nice living out of the job but are now been invaded by boats which in time will do massive damage to the nerdrop population boats as big as 90ft are fishing on prawns no wonder the small boys are having a winge there livelyhood is at stake here.

 

 

What is being seen is very close to the predicted 'fishing down the food chain' scenario.

 

First the large fish of commercially important species disappear - Cod

 

Then the smaller spcimans - collapse of stock

 

Then the competing species thrive - haddock & whiting

 

Until they too go the same way.

 

Then the food of the species eliminated thrive and are targeted - nethrops (prawns)

 

Eventually you are fishing for plankton, because there is not much left above them in the food chain! :eek:

[big_cod]

I understand the smaller guys getting upset, it's happening everywhere, and they are really losing out because with so many prawn on the market, prices are falling and more and more often the smaller prawn are being discarded because there's just no market for them.

 

But they are not the only discards, tons of immature fish are also discarded which adds to the effects felt by the smaller inshore boats as well as RSA. What I really find annoying is that the techniques exist to exploit many of the fisheries with minimal bycatch, the prawn fishery in Norway manages to do it successfully, why can't the British ?

 

Regular surveys are taken in the Clyde fishery, on-board a commercial vessel, these show in an average year for the prawn fishery 2925 tons of prawns landed / 418 tons prawns discarded / 715 tons fish landed / 1614 tons fish discarded

 

The fish discards are juveniles of the demersal species, 1614 tons at 8oz to the fish = over 7 million fish that don't get a chance to breed. !!

 

This isn't stuff invented by anyone, it's happening now, it's documented and it's just history repeating itself, a new stock identified and now being exploited by many without any thought for the future.

 

How can anyone give respect to an industry which seems bent on chasing profit without taking the steps necessary to ensure it's own future, even if that means screwing it up for all, including the smaller of their own kind ?

 

 

Nice one steve there are people who visit this forum who think discards dont exist

Its beneficial to all to cut discards for anglers and the lads who work in the commercial fishing industry all will reap the benefits.

Edited November 20, 2006 by big_cod

[JB]

JB - The west coast of Scotland is another area where most are now engaged in prawn, or as the Scots marketing guys prefer, langoustine.

 

The reason though is that there is little or nothing else to go for - all the demersal and inshore pelagic stocks have been effectively wiped out. The inner clyde is virtually devoid of anything other than juvenile stock. This is neither media hype, uninformed speculation or propaganda - Austen Brown (Clyde Fishermen's Association)

 

“ I will give you a short history of how we have got to where we are. Most of the fish-stocks problems have arisen from the deployment of technology over the past 30 years or so.

 

Cheap fuel has allowed more power to be used to tow bigger nets. The invention of bobbins and rock hoppers allowed fishermen to explore vast areas of hard ground, which had hitherto been breeding-stock reserves similar to the no-take zones that are proposed by some of the Cornishmen.

 

Multiple rigs now allow larger white-fish boats to operate profitably pursuing ground fish and prawns, thereby undermining the markets that are relied on by many of our member fishermen.

 

The invention of the semi-pelagic trawl has almost completely annihilated the former deep-water breeding stocks of cod, hake, haddock and whiting in our area. Fish now have nowhere to hide; they are chased from the shore to the deepest water and virtually everywhere is towed. “

 

So yes, many of the vessels one sees now are chasing langoustine, but it's because there is no real alternative, there aren't enough fish there to make it commercially viable.

 

This has also caused the west coast to lose millions of pounds from its' tourist industry, loads of charter skippers have had to pack it in, some very significant sea angling festivals and competitions are no longer held.

 

It can hardly be surprising that there is a degree of resentment - it may be wrongly directed now but it is understandable, it happened in the past and no one was held accountable; perhaps what's worst is that some of it is still perpetuated today - eg: the exploitation of gravid Spurdog.

Hi Seaside,

Your history lesson is very much what I have lived through and taken part in.

Around about twenty years ago, in the winter, the inshore grounds around the Yorkshire coast were saturated with gill nets out to a mile off shore; and beyond that to three miles extensively trawled; beyond that it was less extensively trawled but most of the rough ground and wrecks were being continually gill netted. I was a long-line fisherman at the time and I spent most of my time fending trawlers off my gear or avoiding net-enders so as not to get hung up on them.

 

The fishing licence units that caught all the fish twenty-odd years ago have been greatly reduced by decommissioning. A large percentage of the remaining fishing licence units have been converted over to shellfish. So the same extensive inshore fishing cannot happen again. I can only assume that a similar thing has happened in your area.

 

For the same financial reasons that you mentioned, what is left of our local white fish trawlers have already, or will in the future, turn to fishing prawn. At present there are no inshore prawns on our part of the coast. Whether things will change in the future, I don’t know. Prawns seem to be popping up in areas all over the North Sea that they have never been found before. At present, inshore prawns caught by trawlers are found north of Hartlepool, outside of three miles. But generally, most of the major prawn fishery is carried out far offshore in areas like the Outer Silver Pit, Dab Hole, Swallow Hole, Devil’s Hole, Clay Deeps, etc.

 

Likewise, our charter fishing industry has gone the same way as yours. Fewer anglers, hence fewer charter boats, and less income for charter skippers. In fact, I was earning more money in the eighties with a few months’ summer charter/angling than the average Whitby inshore charter boat does now for a twelve month season. I was charging less than half of today’s price per person but there were many times more anglers.

 

Many of us know our history, but what I am saying is - at least on the Yorkshire coast - things are very different now.

 

You talk of resentment, yes there is resentment. We all have our fair share of resentment, including me. But what good does it do?

 

JB