Bass v Salmon& Sea Trout ?

[dartangler]

Here is one for you all to argue about with the conservation of bass a hot current topic! I was informed by Paul Knight of the S&TA recently, that a number of bass caught in the Solway Firth were, when gutted, found to contain salmon & sea trout smolts! I suspect that in the open sea that is a fact of nature. However my local 9 mile long estuary, the Dart, was one of many designated a bass nursery area in I think 1982! Since when, other than some limited illegal exploitation, the bass have been thriving without exploitation ( Only to be slaughtered by the pair trawling effort - later in life, but thats another story). Prior to this there existed in this and many other South West Estuaries a good fishery for bass of mixed sizes! My river in common with many others has suffered a decline in salmon numbers and more recently sea trout. On a date basis, this decline would seem to co-incide with the introduction of the nursery zone! Up to now we have blamed many other factors such as cormorants,gooseanders that also appeared here in 1982, seals that some active conservationists appear to think should be saved as abandoned pups elsewhere along the coast and later reintroduced in the Dart and of course pollution and abstraction. Not for one moment had I, or others on the river, given a thought to the possible impact of an enhanced bass population.

As a keen game angler and bass fisherman I am now in a dilemma about this. I would welcome your views, but on a sea fishing forum might possibly anticipate the response! I am aware from Paul of tagged smolts in America being found in the stomach of striped bass, but am unaware of any research into this matter in the UK.

Out of interest the catch return last night for 10 Members of our Angling Association fishing Totnes Weir Pool at the head of the tide, with good number of salmon and sea trout smolts present was 1 sea trout, landed together with 5 bass to 1lb! I might add that as well as catching and returning the only sea trout and one of the bass, I also prematurely released the largest Dart sea trout I have ever hooked and I have been fortunate enough to land 6 over 10lb in the past!

[Ryford]

dartangler,

 

This is an issue which I understand concerns many anglers. We do not need to look too far back in history to find a time when there was no commercial bass fishery at all to speak of. At the same time, anglers had fabulous fishing where both the abundance and overall size of fish that they would catch bares no comparison to today. At the same time, both sea trout and especially salmon numbers entering west country esturaries was equally far higher.

 

How could an inshore zone support such healthy stocks of all species and still maintain an equally healthy sea trout population?

 

Whilst I accept your observations I feel that we should look at the overall picture, especially in historical terms and look for other changes that have taken place that may have an influence. My guess is, which is backed up with both angler catch returns and observations by fishermen, that fish numbers inshore really started to decline from about the end of the sixties.

 

This of course coincided with another man made invention, the monofilament gill net. Sea trout, unlike salmon, stay relatively close to the shore, which is an area that has been, and still is, very heavily netted.

 

andyR

[steve good]

Here is one for you all to argue about with the conservation of bass a hot current topic! I was informed by Paul Knight of the S&TA recently, that a number of bass caught in the Solway Firth were, when gutted, found to contain salmon & sea trout smolts! I suspect that in the open sea that is a fact of nature. However my local 9 mile long estuary, the Dart, was one of many designated a bass nursery area in I think 1982! Since when, other than some limited illegal exploitation, the bass have been thriving without exploitation ( Only to be slaughtered by the pair trawling effort - later in life, but thats another story). Prior to this there existed in this and many other South West Estuaries a good fishery for bass of mixed sizes! My river in common with many others has suffered a decline in salmon numbers and more recently sea trout. On a date basis, this decline would seem to co-incide with the introduction of the nursery zone! Up to now we have blamed many other factors such as cormorants,gooseanders that also appeared here in 1982, seals that some active conservationists appear to think should be saved as abandoned pups elsewhere along the coast and later reintroduced in the Dart and of course pollution and abstraction. Not for one moment had I, or others on the river, given a thought to the possible impact of an enhanced bass population.

As a keen game angler and bass fisherman I am now in a dilemma about this. I would welcome your views, but on a sea fishing forum might possibly anticipate the response! I am aware from Paul of tagged smolts in America being found in the stomach of striped bass, but am unaware of any research into this matter in the UK.

Out of interest the catch return last night for 10 Members of our Angling Association fishing Totnes Weir Pool at the head of the tide, with good number of salmon and sea trout smolts present was 1 sea trout, landed together with 5 bass to 1lb! I might add that as well as catching and returning the only sea trout and one of the bass, I also prematurely released the largest Dart sea trout I have ever hooked and I have been fortunate enough to land 6 over 10lb in the past!

 

Hi dartangler

 

The problem with Bass v Salmon and Sea Trout in the Solway Firth and other places will only get worst, aggregating dredging has removed the spawning grounds of the sandeels which are the main food for Bass in my area (south coast). The sanddeels stocks are now at a all time low. Over the last three years or so the bass above mls up to one kilo have gone missing, it appears that they have moved north in search of a more plentiful food supply.

 

The government have a large financial interest in the aggregate industry and therefore the man induced imbalance in the food chain will never be rectified.

 

Also if the bio-mass of bass were to increase by natural or man made cause's then this will compound the problem regarding there food supply, and a much higher rate of predatation on salmon and sea trout smolt's will result.

 

Regards Steve

[steve good]

dartangler,

 

This is an issue which I understand concerns many anglers. We do not need to look too far back in history to find a time when there was no commercial bass fishery at all to speak of. At the same time, anglers had fabulous fishing where both the abundance and overall size of fish that they would catch bares no comparison to today. At the same time, both sea trout and especially salmon numbers entering west country esturaries was equally far higher.

 

How could an inshore zone support such healthy stocks of all species and still maintain an equally healthy sea trout population?

 

Whilst I accept your observations I feel that we should look at the overall picture, especially in historical terms and look for other changes that have taken place that may have an influence. My guess is, which is backed up with both angler catch returns and observations by fishermen, that fish numbers inshore really started to decline from about the end of the sixties.

 

This of course coincided with another man made invention, the monofilament gill net. Sea trout, unlike salmon, stay relatively close to the shore, which is an area that has been, and still is, very heavily netted.

 

andyR

 

Hi andyR

 

It still does not answer the fact that the bass nursery areas have increased the number of bass to such an extent that salmon and sea trout smolt's are the bass's main food supply in cerntain areas at certain times of the year.

 

Regards Steve

Edited May 2, 2007 by steve good

[barry luxton]

Here is one for you all to argue about with the conservation of bass a hot current topic! I was informed by Paul Knight of the S&TA recently, that a number of bass caught in the Solway Firth were, when gutted, found to contain salmon & sea trout smolts! I suspect that in the open sea that is a fact of nature. However my local 9 mile long estuary, the Dart, was one of many designated a bass nursery area in I think 1982! Since when, other than some limited illegal exploitation, the bass have been thriving without exploitation ( Only to be slaughtered by the pair trawling effort - later in life, but thats another story). Prior to this there existed in this and many other South West Estuaries a good fishery for bass of mixed sizes! My river in common with many others has suffered a decline in salmon numbers and more recently sea trout. On a date basis, this decline would seem to co-incide with the introduction of the nursery zone! Up to now we have blamed many other factors such as cormorants,gooseanders that also appeared here in 1982, seals that some active conservationists appear to think should be saved as abandoned pups elsewhere along the coast and later reintroduced in the Dart and of course pollution and abstraction. Not for one moment had I, or others on the river, given a thought to the possible impact of an enhanced bass population.

As a keen game angler and bass fisherman I am now in a dilemma about this. I would welcome your views, but on a sea fishing forum might possibly anticipate the response! I am aware from Paul of tagged smolts in America being found in the stomach of striped bass, but am unaware of any research into this matter in the UK.

Out of interest the catch return last night for 10 Members of our Angling Association fishing Totnes Weir Pool at the head of the tide, with good number of salmon and sea trout smolts present was 1 sea trout, landed together with 5 bass to 1lb! I might add that as well as catching and returning the only sea trout and one of the bass, I also prematurely released the largest Dart sea trout I have ever hooked and I have been fortunate enough to land 6 over 10lb in the past!

 

 

Thank you for an interesting post. I am also envious of your local fishing patch. How was the bass targetted on a commercial basis when there was no restiction in the dart? Would also feed be a consideration on what the bass live on. What about the average size of the bass within the stock locally, would you say that it has decreased as needs must.I do hear of concerns regarding sandeel stocks and i am aware that mackerel is being targetted by factory ships like the altaire. Somehow i don't think the south west bass population will be allowed to expand as commercially and also from a certain presidant of a rsa group they have asked ben to defer any chance of the bass growing to a realistic size. Look forward to the release of the pair trawling topic. Sorry to pose more questions.Cheers.

[ColinW]

I think the Dart was made a nursery area in 1990 and presumably it would take a few years after that for any noticeable change in bass stocks to take place. If the sea trout stocks were declining as early as 1982, and the salmon stocks even earlier, then I think you need to look for another reason.

Obviously bass will eat smolts, but that's why there should be thousands of them swimming out of the rivers. It's what happens to the adult fish out on their main feeding grounds and as they return to the estuaries that is the problem.

[steve good]

I think the Dart was made a nursery area in 1990 and presumably it would take a few years after that for any noticeable change in bass stocks to take place. If the sea trout stocks were declining as early as 1982, and the salmon stocks even earlier, then I think you need to look for another reason.

Obviously bass will eat smolts, but that's why there should be thousands of them swimming out of the rivers. It's what happens to the adult fish out on their main feeding grounds and as they return to the estuaries that is the problem.

 

Hi ColinW

 

QUOTE/ It's what happens to the adult fish out on their main feeding grounds and as they return to the estuaries that is the problem.

 

I do not think that is the case at all.

 

It would appear that the salmon and sea trout are breeding alright hence the smolt's, if the bass are eating the smolt's then the recruitment to the mature breeding stock will decline.

 

Regards Steve

[Leon Roskilly]

I haven't yet digested this Invest In Fish report (I'm on holiday in the Med, so it can wait!)

 

But it apparently shows that the bass population in the SW will decline by about 80% by 2014 and angling by 50% (assuming no new effective initiatives to conserve stocks)

 

 

See http://www.investinfishsw.org.uk/documents...01/Baseline.doc

 

 

Maybe we shouldn't be worrying too much about the smolt (though the SW net fishery for bass etc probably accounts for many of the maturer fish)

[wurzel]

dartangler,

 

This is an issue which I understand concerns many anglers. We do not need to look too far back in history to find a time when there was no commercial bass fishery at all to speak of. At the same time, anglers had fabulous fishing where both the abundance and overall size of fish that they would catch bares no comparison to today. At the same time, both sea trout and especially salmon numbers entering west country esturaries was equally far higher.

 

How could an inshore zone support such healthy stocks of all species and still maintain an equally healthy sea trout population?

 

Whilst I accept your observations I feel that we should look at the overall picture, especially in historical terms and look for other changes that have taken place that may have an influence. My guess is, which is backed up with both angler catch returns and observations by fishermen, that fish numbers inshore really started to decline from about the end of the sixties.

 

This of course coincided with another man made invention, the monofilament gill net. Sea trout, unlike salmon, stay relatively close to the shore, which is an area that has been, and still is, very heavily netted.

 

andyR

 

Hello AndyR

 

off course disagree!

It's a few years since I visited the area I admit, I don't know of a large fleet of inshore netters in that area.

 

I fished the Dart many times during the very late 60's and more so early 70's, I caught several bass, but not anything or in numbers you would call fabulous, mostly I fished for bass near Dartmouth, favourite spot was under the ferry terminal on the Kings weir side, I was never once plagued by loads of small imature bass, in fact I can't remember ever catching a bass less than a couple of pound, if it happened now you would all be saying bass are going to be extinct in a few years.

I also fished at Totness, a good spot for mullet, trotting bread flake near the road bridge, and if the mullet weren’t playing I would fish the Bacon factory leat for sea trout using worm, on several occasions wondering on up to the weir to try for a bigger one, never caught one over a couple of pound or so,( used to winkle the odd plump brown trout from that stream before it entered the bacon factory) used to see salmon but never caught one, again using spinners such as a devon minnow and again not once did I catch a single bass in that area, they just were not there in the numbers they are to day.

 

An EA scientist, the one in charge of reintroducing salmon into the Thames told me that if sea temperatures rise much more salmon will become extinct from the southern rivers of the UK including Ireland, the reason they have abandoned the Thames project.

Sea trout however are supposed to be doing ok. according to the same scientist.

There seemed to be plenty running up the Avon at Salisbury last time I was there.

 

I don't think bass nursery areas have had the slightest effect on the bass stock, areas that are not designated have just as many bass if not more in some cases than areas or estuaries that are.

Now the 2001 and 2002 massive, much bigger than ever known, year class are approaching the size that can easily eat a small smolt no doubt it could make a difference to the sea trout population of a river in the future.

 

(is the Bacon factory still there?)

[wurzel]

I haven't yet digested this Invest In Fish report (I'm on holiday in the Med, so it can wait!)

 

But it apparently shows that the bass population in the SW will decline by about 80% by 2014 and angling by 50% (assuming no new effective initiatives to conserve stocks)

See http://www.investinfishsw.org.uk/documents...01/Baseline.doc

Maybe we shouldn't be worrying too much about the smolt (though the SW net fishery for bass etc probably accounts for many of the maturer fish)

 

 

I don't think I have ever read so much crap crystal ball gazing in all my life!

 

And to think people get paid to produce such rubbish! even more worring is that will people believe it.