RSA Strategy Consultation Launched

[Jaffa]

If you do nothing else after reading this, just google PEW COMMISSION. Those of you that have never heard of it might be in for a big surprise at just how many areas of life this crew have a lobby in

 

Then think about the RSA / commercial arguments here.

 

Wish i could understand any of it.

[Jaffa]

Wish I could understand the linkage you try making?

 

"Linkage"? Oh just curious about Money, media coverage and its connection to truth.

 

Your unfamiliar with the Pew Commission then?

Edited December 18, 2007 by Jaffa

[barry luxton]

"Linkage"? Oh just curious about Money, media coverage and its connection to truth.

 

Your unfamiliar with the Pew Commission then?

 

 

Done a good job trying to divert away from the actuall post Jaffa, have you got any comment on what Roberts had said. What about commenting on what the pretty little north western spanish port offers.

Like the bit about sorting for the camera's though, bit like tit-for-tat.

[wurzel]

Don't think they will have a copy of this in their briefcase this week.

 

And he is only a professor of marine conservation, what does he know. :

 

Hello Barry

 

Most probably bugger all.

He's another Charles bloody Clover and like wise making a good living out of it.

The title of "professor of marine conservation" is suspect straight away.

 

I'm no professor don't suppose I'm even educated by comparison so I have some questions and comments on North Sea Cod Stocks for him as he probably won't answer them perhaps one of you who claim to know more or better than I could.

 

 

Why if the North sea was teeming with cod did fishermen from English ports steam or sail before steam in some very dodgy looking boats all the way to North Norway, Iceland, Green Land and Canada to catch cod?

 

Is it not a fact that if those countries had not imposed 200 mile limits and expanded their own fleets English boats would still be landing large quantities of Cod instead of importing large quintiles of cod?

 

Quote

In the early 19th Century, for example, three fishers working with hand lines on the Dogger Bank in the middle of the North Sea were said to have caught 1,600 cod in a day.

Quote

 

 

I know about the upturn in North Sea cod during the very late 1800's, I ve spoken to old fishermen, mainly dead now, who's fathers or grandfathers fished the Dogger Bank cod fishery instead of sailing to Iceland or Norway, using long lines with whelks for bait, it would not be difficult for three fishers hand hauling several miles of long line to catch 1600 cod in a day which is probably closer to the truth. The old boys told me it soon fizzled out, what happened there then?

I can't find any reference to any amount of cod fishing in the North Sea until the so called gadoid explosion during the 1960's, plenty on herring and tuna even old film footage of large catches of lobsters but nothing of a local cod fishery even from the North Sea's cod hot spot port of Whitby.

This suggests to me that Cod stocks were quit low between those dates, defiantly lower than 150,000 tonnes the EU's target for recovery.

 

It's a fact that cod stocks have like other stocks fluctuated by considerable amounts over the years and it's only recently that fishermen have been blamed resulting in the need for a Professor of conservation.

 

And before somebody says” what about the grand banks" the same thing has happened there several times through the ages.

 

Ok I've cherry picked this a bit but the facts remain the same.

 

Quote

 

 

 

THE HISTORY OF THE NORTHERN COD FISHERY

 

 

From the merchants' point of view, the depressions in the fishery which were endemic between 1660 and 1730 meant that if he engaged directly in the fishery, hiring a ship, paying the men and taking all the risks, he stood little chance of good profit and much chance of ruin.

 

and a series of disastrous fishing seasons in the 1660's had ruined the west of England merchants and captains. The old methods of fishing no longer sufficed and new ones were required

The fishery continued to be poor until the late 1720's

 

From 1783 to 1789 there was a great post-war boom in the fishery which again caused a rapid increase in settlement. In 1789 the boom collapsed, but the population did not decline greatly as had been the case in past depressions. The migratory fishery began to decline and by 1793 it was becoming clear that Newfoundland now had a population which was too large to be moved,

 

Prudence and thrift in good years, which resulted in the building of capital reserves, could be expected to tide both the merchant and the indebted fishermen over the bad year, but a continuation of bad seasons must in the end ruin the merchant. Indeed this happened increasingly after 1780 as the population grew and each merchant dealt with an increasing number of fishermen and their families. In 1784 one individual gave a list of the forty-four firms which controlled the fishery. By 1810 only thirteen of them survived - the vast majority of the others had become insolvent. And over the next forty years almost all the others gradually followed suit. Not one of those firms could be numbered among the Water Street giants of the nineteenth century and only one, the incredibly well-managed firm of Newman and Company, survived intact into this century.

[barry luxton]

Ok then Wurzel what about comparison with the 'good old' days and now where there is a reliance on tiddlers as opposed to the 1m long cods that the fish markets used to sell as normal. Just knew Mr clover had to come up.

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_...stry/html/2.stm

 

anyone got more upto date ones.

Edited December 18, 2007 by barry luxton

[wurzel]

Ok then Wurzel what about comparison with the 'good old' days and now where there is a reliance on tiddlers as opposed to the 1m long cods that the fish markets used to sell as normal. Just knew Mr clover had to come up.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_...stry/html/2.stm

 

anyone got more upto date ones.

 

 

Hello Barry

 

Did you notice this on your link

 

Quote

But the picture is not universally gloomy: haddock stocks were recently found to be at a 30-year high.

 

Perhaps Haddock haven't been fished for the last 30 years what do you think?

 

Is it not true that anglers travel to Norway to catch monster cod weighing up to 60 LB regally catching fish of 30 and 40 lb?

Could it also be true that this is the same place the old UK fleets used to travel to?

 

Did you not watch the Trawler man? they went to great efforts to show off any large cod that were caught, even though they were mostly not fishing for cod.

 

Is there a reliance on tiddlers? Where, have you been to a fish market lately.

Didn't the new trawlere built for Whiby recently land a large catch of all grades of cod including one monster fish?

[Jaffa]

Done a good job trying to divert away from the actuall post Jaffa, have you got any comment on what Roberts had said. What about commenting on what the pretty little north western spanish port offers.

Like the bit about sorting for the camera's though, bit like tit-for-tat.

 

Hi Barry,

 

A job is something your paid for with a definite end in mind. I'm not paid to post and rather than an end i have an interest and curiosity about fisheries.

 

Im still reading the BBC article on the Prof's views and doubt i can give you anything at all of sense about some Spanish town i have never been too.

 

I take it that by "tit-for - tat" you have some notion that the sides are in someway even?

[Jaffa]

I am not unfamiliar with Pew or Callum Roberts and their agendas (agendas which seems more transparent to me than your agenda) but it would be foolish to trash everything as rubbish coming from these corners just because they have agendas. As for truth. I wouldn't call any of them liers but they are 'fact selective' and do spin conclusions their way (as everybody does).

RFA, Recreational Fishing Alliance release (2004) concerning the paper "The Impact of United States Recreational Fisheries on Marine Fish Populations":

 

'We find many faults with the ‘study’ in the form of inaccuracies and invalid assumptions. Essentially, we believe the authors started with a hypothesis and then manipulated the data to satisfy the political agenda of the Pew Foundation, which paid for the paper.'

 

Glad to hear it FF, and im sure the RSA reps are equally aware. Be nice if they would put the hazard warnings out for the rest of us though

[barry luxton]

Hello Barry

 

Did you notice this on your link

 

Quote

But the picture is not universally gloomy: haddock stocks were recently found to be at a 30-year high.

 

Perhaps Haddock haven't been fished for the last 30 years what do you think?

 

Is it not true that anglers travel to Norway to catch monster cod weighing up to 60 LB regally catching fish of 30 and 40 lb?

Could it also be true that this is the same place the old UK fleets used to travel to?

 

Did you not watch the Trawler man? they went to great efforts to show off any large cod that were caught, even though they were mostly not fishing for cod.

 

Is there a reliance on tiddlers? Where, have you been to a fish market lately.

Didn't the new trawlere built for Whiby recently land a large catch of all grades of cod including one monster fish?

 

 

Morning Wurzel,

 

I apologise to you regarding your last post, you must have taken some time to compile that one, for me to dismiss it with a couple of old charts. I agree that you must have done a bit of cherry picking.

 

I did go to an outside market a couple of weeks ago, for joe public, one codling of five pounds,rather thin looking with an eye missing, classed as fresh fish? Three or four at mls, five dubius looking bass that looked rather blue/grey not silver classed as sea bass but the scales were not big enough to form properly, farmed?. Small whiting that if caught by line, wouldn,t give it another thought but to chuck them back alive.

 

Haddock at a thirty year high, bloody good news, then i would agree they are being fished sustainably. May it continue. Bad news re: the herring, sandeel, are they also short of prawn at the moment, not being able to meet the tac. Cuts in other quota fish. Still not good news.

 

Cod, they have agreed to increase the quota to take into account the ones chucked back dead as opposed to put it on the plate, however they have also proposed to go along with this scottish idea to protect the stock with a system where they haven't even produced any result or findings to see if it works? Definatly worth keeping an eye on that one.

 

I agree with you Wurzel, in going to norway to catch brilliant sized cod, do we not also have some decent ones over here, why can't we get our own ones up to an average size that would be worth catching, or is it like a proverbial red bus they will be along soon but don't know how long. Yes i have watched all of the trawler man series but again we can both cherry pick what we want out of it. Yes the new trawler had a good ist catch, don't know where he went to get them, again they were mixed class. There obviously is cod out there, to what extent,from your point of view lots, from mine stock depleted.

[wurzel]

Morning Wurzel,

 

I apologise to you regarding your last post, you must have taken some time to compile that one, for me to dismiss it with a couple of old charts. I agree that you must have done a bit of cherry picking.

 

I did go to an outside market a couple of weeks ago, for joe public, one codling of five pounds,rather thin looking with an eye missing, classed as fresh fish? Three or four at mls, five dubius looking bass that looked rather blue/grey not silver classed as sea bass but the scales were not big enough to form properly, farmed?. Small whiting that if caught by line, wouldn,t give it another thought but to chuck them back alive.

 

Haddock at a thirty year high, bloody good news, then i would agree they are being fished sustainably. May it continue. Bad news re: the herring, sandeel, are they also short of prawn at the moment, not being able to meet the tac. Cuts in other quota fish. Still not good news.

 

Cod, they have agreed to increase the quota to take into account the ones chucked back dead as opposed to put it on the plate, however they have also proposed to go along with this scottish idea to protect the stock with a system where they haven't even produced any result or findings to see if it works? Definatly worth keeping an eye on that one.

 

I agree with you Wurzel, in going to norway to catch brilliant sized cod, do we not also have some decent ones over here, why can't we get our own ones up to an average size that would be worth catching, or is it like a proverbial red bus they will be along soon but don't know how long. Yes i have watched all of the trawler man series but again we can both cherry pick what we want out of it. Yes the new trawler had a good ist catch, don't know where he went to get them, again they were mixed class. There obviously is cod out there, to what extent,from your point of view lots, from mine stock depleted.

 

Hello Barry

 

Don't sound like much of a market to me, I meant Peter Head, Whitby or Brixham.

 

You say that Haddock are fished sustainable then So 35 years ago cod were at a all time high in the North sea, were they also being fished sustainable at that time?

I think there are a shortage of boats fishing for prawns not the shortage of prawns you suggest.

Do you think Norway’s cod are not fished compared to ours? chances are they are fished harder considering the amount Norway exports. Ever considered conditions are more favourable for cod in Norwegian waters?

On the cod stocks I know there are lots, nowhere as many as there were 30 odd years ago, more now than say 5 years ago and I suspect more than 70 years ago, I have never considered them to be endangered and I consider it impossible for them to become extinct, I am sure that the fleet as it is now will have little effect on them.

That’s cod It does not mean I think the same applies to some other species.