RSA Strategy Consultation Launched

[Jaffa]

You make the commercials sound like one big happy family. The truth is different fractions of the commercial industry fall out in lumps, just like different fractions of RSA

 

The main difference is the commercials are better organised and can afford to employ people like Bertie Armstrong and members of the legal profession to fight their cause.

 

I totally agree Ian; static/mobile, east/west, Shetland/ NE and every combination of disagreement and conflict of interests all very real. Yet their reps seem to hold it all togeather, find agreement and a common line and push it through.

 

Big difference surely is that people are paying into it and the reps truly there to represent their members, and not guys whose motives/beliefs /loyalties are unknown and not necessarily tied to the membership?

 

Is money the real big difference here, or is it the disconnect between what the reps believe and what the people they claim to represent do?

 

I don't know what backup Bertie Armstrong has but is it really all that big? An office, and a couple of secretaries by any chance? Unless im mistaken theres no permanent office for lobbying in Brussels and all the rest the greens enjoy.

 

As an example, how about spending some time thinking about this "Golden Mile" ? FWIW its something i could imagine being pulled off, but while idealistic RSA reps may kickstart the idea they are unlikely to have much say on the brakes once the big boys come in and run with it. Where do you imagine it would end up?

 

Chris

Edited December 14, 2007 by Jaffa

[Jaffa]

I was thinking of two boats. I don't know how big the crew on each would actually be, I guessed it would have to be at least four and that more than six would get in each other's way.

 

Some of these boats are not catching mackerel

http://www.buddingrose.co.uk/

 

I apologise Colin; misread your post and thought you meant 12 for one boat; six would be normal for whitefish.

 

Chris

[glennk]

Its on the SACN website;

 

"This week SACN's Leon Roskilly was asked to deliver a presentation to the All Party Parliamentary Group on Marine and Coast Issues on the Marine Bill Proposals.

 

The meeting, attended by MPs and addressed by the Fisheries Minister Jonathan Shaw, took place in the Houses of Parliament on Tuesday.

 

Leon made the point that nature intended our seas to be teeming with fish, and the fact that they are not is not as a result of some natural disaster but the cumulative effect of years of poor management, laying much of the blame at the door of DEFRA.

 

However, Leon also pointed out that the situation could be changed with the Marine Bill creating institutions with the mission, the resources and the powers to deliver a restored marine environment that we would all be proud to hand to future generations.

 

Leon also welcomed the proposed root and branch reform of Sea Fisheries committees, emphasising their primary role as custodians of the marine environment for the benefit of all stakeholders, and putting the health of the marine resources before all other considerations.

 

On Marine Protected Areas, Leon highlighted concerns over displacement of effort, particularly if large areas were closed, leaving the same number of boats seeking to supply the same number of fish from the reduced open areas.

 

He also warned of the dangers of excluding anglers from closed areas simply on the basis of dogma, and emphasised the need for consultation.

 

With regard to licensing of sea anglers, Leon forcefully advised that, in the light of the recent bass mls decision, this proposal should now be dropped until DEFRA have proven that they are willing and able to deliver tangible benefits to those expected to pay.

 

On bag limits Leon said that these would only be acceptable as a necessary conservation package applied proportionately to all those who take fish, and never simply to preserve the catches and markets of others.

 

And finally on the regulation of bait collection he pointed out that this would also involve a responsibility on the regulators to ensure adequate access to well maintained and sustainable supplies, much as SFCs currently manage and maintain cockle beds for commercial exploitation. "

 

 

That's a bit Naive to go with that as a true record. Its written by SACN after all. Lets have an EXACT COPY of the presentation posted up, I would like to see what was said.

[stavey]

Thank you for your opinion on my level of intelligence. It seems to be a reoccurring theme that anyone that disagrees with the official RSA line are branded as either stupid, or in the pockets of the commercials.

 

 

 

Chris

 

So what are you on here for exactly jaffa?

[barry luxton]

The report you posted was interesting but also EU-wide so hardly reasonable to drag it into an essentially UK conversation imho Our fleet has shrunk dramatically, black fish landings etc have been stamped down on. Last i heard Spain did not even know how many fishing boats it has, but if that is or is not actually i big deal i don't know; for each country the problems /answers will be different.

 

 

Chris

 

I think the report has relevance regarding the fish stocks around our shores. As the big 'players' fish in the north sea and the channel, they appear not to have their house in order again according to the report.

 

The whole of the chain appears to be lacking, from the first reporting of the catches to the guys who are running the cfp. So can they say it ain't my fault, all have a part to play but do they really want to.

 

Black landings, i was trying to re-find where i have seen in two places an eu figure of 44,000 tonnes of unrecorded landings for the north sea. One place was in the nffo web site, still looking. Perhaps someone can help me out on that.

[wurzel]

I think the report has relevance regarding the fish stocks around our shores. As the big 'players' fish in the north sea and the channel, they appear not to have their house in order again according to the report.

 

The whole of the chain appears to be lacking, from the first reporting of the catches to the guys who are running the cfp. So can they say it ain't my fault, all have a part to play but do they really want to.

 

Black landings, i was trying to re-find where i have seen in two places an eu figure of 44,000 tonnes of unrecorded landings for the north sea. One place was in the nffo web site, still looking. Perhaps someone can help me out on that.

 

Hello Barry

 

As usual you have your wires crossed, the figure of 44,000 tonnes you keep referring to is the figure that ICES recon is the amount of cod they estimate as encountered from the cod stocks of the north sea, they tried to implicate that some was due to black fish landings, perhaps some are ( very little to UK boats) mostly it's down to natural mortality which they admit is high, but I recon it's just down to their inadequate science and inability to gauge just how many cod there are swimming around the north sea.

It’s also a politically motivated statement as it brings enfaces on the EU’s new baby that is the discard issues.

Does it suit your purpose to turn unaccounted into unrecorded?

[barry luxton]

Hello Barry

 

As usual you have your wires crossed, the figure of 44,000 tonnes you keep referring to is the figure that ICES recon is the amount of cod they estimate as encountered from the cod stocks of the north sea, they tried to implicate that some was due to black fish landings, perhaps some are ( very little to UK boats) mostly it's down to natural mortality which they admit is high, but I recon it's just down to their inadequate science and inability to gauge just how many cod there are swimming around the north sea.

It’s also a politically motivated statement as it brings enfaces on the EU’s new baby that is the discard issues.

Does it suit your purpose to turn unaccounted into unrecorded?

 

Hi Wurzel, i don't usually have me wires crossed and i do know what i read. Perhaps you can be kind enough to point me to the link that you have corrected me on? One of them was certainly within the nffo web site. No mention of uk boats.

 

Why do they have inadequate science, could it be from people and goverments who can't be bothered to provide the information, due to weak policy and weaker sanctions as the eu auditors have pointed out. Ices have pointed out a decrease in mortality.

 

I'm surprised that the commercial reps are making such a big play on the disgard issue when the next thing that they will have to contend with is more and more eu regs on technical control, still if that is what they want.

Edited December 15, 2007 by barry luxton

[wurzel]

Hi Wurzel, i don't usually have me wires crossed and i do know what i read. Perhaps you can be kind enough to point me to the link that you have corrected me on? One of them was certainly within the nffo web site. No mention of uk boats.

 

Why do they have inadequate science, could it be from people and goverments who can't be bothered to provide the information, due to weak policy and weaker sanctions as the eu auditors have pointed out. Ices have pointed out a decrease in mortality.

 

I'm surprised that the commercial reps are making such a big play on the disgard issue when the next thing that they will have to contend with is more and more eu regs on technical control, still if that is what they want.

 

Hello Barry

 

You do usually have your wires not only crossed but hopelessly tangled.

 

I found this in a correspondence I had from the North Sea RAC

 

Quote

When scientists claim that there is a large unaccounted mortality however – fishermen have to call for some consideration. It is in no way documented – or even indicated – that such a thing really takes place. When confronted with the question, the chair of ACFM admits that what the scientists call unaccounted removals does not necessarily translate into unreported landings – it may also be a consequence of increased predation, or a migration out of the area – even, as mentioned above, a change in habitat preference. Or a combination of all these factors.

 

 

As the EU are running out of steam on the cod recovery plans no doubt they will use the discards issues as an axe as they did with the cod.

[Jaffa]

Not that EU-widely. Page 5:

Denmark, Spain, France, the Netherlands, Italy and the United Kingdom (England and Wales).

I am not an expert so maybe you can tell me what is and what is not fixed of the below mentioned failures. Is it all done and dusted and system functions real good today? - and -maybe more important-have most UK fishermen now obtained a genuine culture of compliance with rules or is it still the predominant attitude -as it was expresed on this site by a commercial fisherman not long ago- that you cannot make a living if you follow the rules?

 

Page 19: in the United Kingdom there was no mechanism for verifying the completeness of sales notes submitted in respect of vessels under 10 metres, even though these documents are the only source of information for monitoring catches by this part of the fleet; in Spain, France, Italy and the United Kingdom there were no systems for checking the serial numbers of declaration documents in order to ensure that the series was complete;

 

Page 20: in Denmark, France, Italy, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom there were no systematic cross-checks on the consistency of VMS data33 with the data in declaration documents; in four out of these five countries where it tested this aspect, the Court identified apparent anomalies for which the responsible authorities were unable to account satisfactorily.

 

Page 33: 68. At the time of the Court's audit visits, Spain, France, Italy and the United Kingdom did not have any centralised systems for recording inspection reports. (Good news: Commission's answer page 65: 'Progress has been made since the Court's visit to the Member States concerned. 2 of the 4 Member States mentioned (United Kingdom and France) have already implemented such a system.)

Page 34: B ) in Denmark and the United Kingdom (in England and Wales), the rate of attendance by inspectors was definitely inadequate; each team of two inspectors was, on average, respectively in charge of 11 and 10 landing places, in use several times a day.

 

Page 36: a) in Spain, France, Italy and the United Kingdom, the inspectors did not all have direct access to catch and/or VMS data from their operational bases;

 

81. At the operational level, the absence of relevant targeting of inspections impaired the efficiency of inspections. In the United Kingdom, it was found that the inspectors had increased inspections of vessels where no infringement could be found, while at the same time other, nonetheless active and sizeable vessels had never been inspected.

 

82. However, conducting integrated inspections incorporating verification of businesses' accounting data, e.g. in joint inspections with the tax administration, was seen to be effective in several countries, such as Denmark, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom. These inspections in fact showed up inconsistencies between the data forwarded to the fisheries administrations and management data, particularly in those businesses which combined fisheries activity with that of first buyer. However, in the absence of statutory requirements this approach is still marginal.

Page 40: a) in the United Kingdom and more specifically in England and Wales, there is no system of administrative sanctions, and decisions to pursue a case are subject to a "public interest" assessment founded, in particular, on whether the ratio between the cost of proceeding and the applicable penalty is considered too high. Hence, 90 % (71) of infringements identified in 2005 were not pursued through the Courts and led only to a warning from the inspectorate;

(71) Out of 202 infringements found during landing inspections (including on-board controls) there were 167 oral warnings, 14 written warnings, 20 cases passed to the judicial authorities and one case pending.

 

....In Spain, France, Italy and the United Kingdom there is no database that contains all sanctions imposed in the area of fisheries. In Denmark, it has only existed since 2004.

 

Im not an expert either but my gut feeling is god help us all and the lunatics are running the asylum

Edited December 15, 2007 by Jaffa

[John S]

It's also a politically motivated statement as it brings enfaces on the EU's new baby that is the discard issues.

 

Enfaces? Don't know that word - I even had a look in the dictionary but it isn't in there either Care to enlighten me/us?