Big bream

[gozzer]

It's a nice idea John, but I'm not sure it would work too well in practice. If you could get people in the most productive (so far) swims all the time, I'm sure a few more bream would get caught, but that's never going to happen. Also...

 

Why do you think it would never happen Andrew?

Is it because of the numbers of fish, or the organisation difficulties?

 

If the fish are as localised as you think, then choosing swims in those areas should give the greatest chance of a capture.

 

If it's organising who fishes where and when? Then I agree that it would take a great deal of collaboration among the anglers involved.

It would mean that those who have the easiest access to the water, would have to sometimes make way for those that have limited access, (because of distance or other commitments). The plus side would be that those who can't get there as often, would have the benefit of the experience, information and baiting done by the others. Those that are able to fish more often would benefit from all those things, and have more rod hours on the water.

 

Are there swims on Wingham that rarely get fished (because of distance or accessibility), but still look 'fishy'?

If it was me then I would be looking closely at those swims, because obviously they have had less chance of producing simply because they have had less anglers fishing them.

 

John.

[Fenman]

That's a very interesting point, I think you're right. I reckon they might wander back later that night though.

 

It does raise a good theoretical question - does a tight bed of bait create competitive feeding or force the fish away from you? I bait up fairly loosely, about an area the size of a family car, rather than really tight baiting like I would for tench.

 

PS I used to love bream fishing in the fens! Quite a few shoal bream, I've never heard of any giants but who's to say with that many miles of fertile drains...

 

Another interesting question to the more experienced breamers out there - can a water like the fens contain both shoal bream and giant bream, or is it always a 'one or the other' situation?

I hope the answer is "both" or I'm going to be spending a very boring summer.

The other point is that almost everyone (except me) gets out the feeder and fishes under the far bank with double red maggot on a size 18 hook.

Now personally I don't think this will catch Superbream. And if you were lucky enough to hook one, you'd never get it to the net from 40 yards away.

I was smashed up about 10 times last summer. Other anglers I spoke to talk of large carp that go around smashing people up, but no-one fishes for carp and no-one catches carp. As far as I know.

As they say: there's only one way to find out.

[Anderoo]

Why do you think it would never happen Andrew?

Is it because of the numbers of fish, or the organisation difficulties?

 

If the fish are as localised as you think, then choosing swims in those areas should give the greatest chance of a capture.

 

If it's organising who fishes where and when? Then I agree that it would take a great deal of collaboration among the anglers involved.

It would mean that those who have the easiest access to the water, would have to sometimes make way for those that have limited access, (because of distance or other commitments). The plus side would be that those who can't get there as often, would have the benefit of the experience, information and baiting done by the others. Those that are able to fish more often would benefit from all those things, and have more rod hours on the water.

 

Are there swims on Wingham that rarely get fished (because of distance or accessibility), but still look 'fishy'?

If it was me then I would be looking closely at those swims, because obviously they have had less chance of producing simply because they have had less anglers fishing them.

 

John.

 

Sorry, I didn't explain that very well! I think that you could possibly hold a group of fish in an area if there was always good quality bait going in (like a carp lake), but even in Spring and Summer at Wingham there are long periods where there's no-one fishing. Also, I prefer bream fishing for bream rather than carp fishing for them, if that makes sense.

 

I do think that the fish are 'localised' for periods at a time, but apart from fishing those areas and catching, there's no way to tell where these areas are...

 

Your other point is one I totally agree with. There certainly are virtually unfished areas (as far as I know, anyway) which look good on paper. What I look for most of all in a potential swim is variety - pinch points, flat areas, lack of weed, and lots of different depths. There are a few spots I'd like to try this year!

[gozzer]

Sorry, I didn't explain that very well! I think that you could possibly hold a group of fish in an area if there was always good quality bait going in (like a carp lake), but even in Spring and Summer at Wingham there are long periods where there's no-one fishing. Also, I prefer bream fishing for bream rather than carp fishing for them, if that makes sense.

 

I do think that the fish are 'localised' for periods at a time, but apart from fishing those areas and catching, there's no way to tell where these areas are...

 

Your other point is one I totally agree with. There certainly are virtually unfished areas (as far as I know, anyway) which look good on paper. What I look for most of all in a potential swim is variety - pinch points, flat areas, lack of weed, and lots of different depths. There are a few spots I'd like to try this year!

 

Ah, I didn't take into account the long unfished periods Andrew. That does make a difference to my idea.

 

I understand the bream fishing/carp fishing thing, as you probably know, it's not my cup of tea either.

 

John.

[Steve Burke]

An interesting idea John but I think it would indeed be counterproductive. I suspect the bream would just move elsewhere. Additionally, one of the reasons why the bream are so big is that they are unpressured - not just from being caught but by not being fished for. I also think the tench, and even the few carp present, would push the bream out.

 

Although we operate as a team - rather like the old time specimen groups - each of us has our own individual ideas. Fishing different swims means that we can try lots of different ideas such as different baiting patterns. I think that way we learn more quickly.

 

Of course we all compare notes, not only here but on our own Forum that Rob Ward kindly set up, plus at 2 group Fish-Ins we started last year.

 

Wingham has very little fishing pressure and indeed some swims have rarely been fished - ever. By spreading ourselves out I think we have a greater chance of one of us finding the bream.

 

Please do continue to come up with ideas though. One of the ideas could well be the missing piece of the jigsaw.

[wyeknot]

So I believe I need to spread out my feed so all the fish can feed in comfort.

To get them to take a hookbait, we need to get them relaxed and comfortable. So we need enough feed to keep them interested for at least an hour. During this time, no feeding and NO CASTING.

So my plan this summer:

Fish at night

Loads on groundbait spread over a wide area (quality doesn't matter).

Big baits, big hooks, strong line.

 

I like your thinking John, but as Budgie has said these 'Superbream' seem to behave like a separate sub-species. They swim around in small groups but because the lake is rich in natural food and they aren't part of a large shoal, there isn't any competitive feeding response. I suspect that these bream 'graze-feed'. swimming along and dropping down onto patches of bloodworm, crustaceans, etc. I agree with you that these fish are very cautious. On other waters I have watched 15lb+ bream hang back watching smaller (8+lb) fish feed on spod spill and not make any attempt to feed on the maggot, corn, etc. So I can imagine similar behaviour in the small group of 'superbream'; one or two dipping down to feed then moving on. They have no need to make the most of a large bed of food, especially if the tench and other silver fish are in there. This is speculation, I know, but you have to have a theory to work to until more data is available.

 

Steve C.

Edited February 4, 2009 by wyeknot

[Anderoo]

I like your thinking John, but as Budgie has said these 'Superbream' seem to behave like a separate sub-species. They swim around in small groups but because the lake is rich in natural food and they aren't part of a large shoal, there isn't any competitive feeding response. I suspect that these bream 'graze-feed'. swimming along and dropping down onto patches of bloodworm, crustaceans, etc. I agree with you that these fish are very cautious. On other waters I have watched 15lb+ bream hang back watching smaller (8+lb) fish feed on spod spill and not make any attempt to feed on the maggot, corn, etc. So I can imagine similar behaviour in the small group of 'superbream'; one or two dipping down to feed then moving on. They have no need to make the most of a large bed of food, especially if the tench and other silver fish are in there. This is speculation, I know, but you have to have a theory to work to until more data is available.

 

Steve C.

 

I think you're right Steve, however I do believe you can make them feed 'competitively' with perfect baiting, even within their little groups. This is one of Alex's theories which I do think is right. I've never seen them rolling of bubbling when eating natural food as they graze over the rich lakebed (unlike the tench), but I (and Alex) have clearly seen them rolling and bubbling over a baited spot. I'd call that competitive feeding. I think we anglers can offer them food which is even more attractive to them than their rich natual diet! I think that's a point where Budgie and I differ.

 

Also I was thinking about the 'more than one group' idea you had and I now think that this can be explained by the theory that there's a semi-resident group. My money is on a mutliple catch coming from the same group of fish, whether that's one fish after another or one fish followed by a gap of several hours or even a day, and then another. I do think that you can extract one fish from a group and not worry the others too much, as long as they're 'feeding competitively'.

 

In fact, I bet the fish we both caught last year were from the same group!

Edited February 4, 2009 by Anderoo

[Guest tigger]

In fact, I bet the fish we both caught last year were from the same group!

 

 

 

Maybe it would be interesting to tag all the bream caught and see if the same fish turn up together or in the same areas etc, a kind of survey or study.

[wyeknot]

I think you're right Steve, however I do believe you can make them feed 'competitively' with perfect baiting, even within their little groups. This is one of Alex's theories which I do think is right. I've never seen them rolling of bubbling when eating natural food as they graze over the rich lakebed (unlike the tench), but I (and Alex) have clearly seen them rolling and bubbling over a baited spot. I'd call that competitive feeding. I think we anglers can offer them food which is even more attractive to them than their rich natual diet! I think that's a point where Budgie and I differ.

So why do they roll and bubble when feeding on bait and not when feeding in natural foods and why is this competitive feeding? Competitive feeding seems to me to be "heads down and going for it" activity not rolling at the surface. I have seen bream roll in a swim before I have put any bait in. (Only to have them scarper when I do. Grrr ) My last thought is - What can be more attractive than natural bait?

Talk to you later - I have work to do!!

Steve C.

[Anderoo]

So why do they roll and bubble when feeding on bait and not when feeding in natural foods and why is this competitive feeding? Competitive feeding seems to me to be "heads down and going for it" activity not rolling at the surface. I have seen bream roll in a swim before I have put any bait in. (Only to have them scarper when I do. Grrr ) My last thought is - What can be more attractive than natural bait?

Talk to you later - I have work to do!!

Steve C.

 

I reckon they roll and bubble over bait because it's in a concentrated area compared to the natural food, which is all over the lake, and the more they eat and get their confidence up the more they want to eat before it runs out.

 

The fact they eat our bait and groundbait at all suggest to me that it's more attractive! They certainly don't have to eat it, and if they didn't want to, they wouldn't.

 

I still don't know exactly why they roll, but Graham Marsden's theory is the best I've heard - to get extra oxygen. Feeding that hard takes up a lot of oxygen, and there's more oxygen at the surface than at the bottom. (Derek Quirk in his book says bream roll less on gravel pits than other bream waters like reservoirs and meres because pits often have higher disolved oxygen. When they do roll, it's often under the surface). Therefore the hard feeding and the rolling is connected.

 

I'd better do some work too

Edited February 4, 2009 by Anderoo