Fishing the feeder - converting twitches into bites

[The Flying Tench]

On the trip referred to in the last post about angling footwear I was getting a reasonable number of indications on the (sanded down, very sensitive) quiver tip, but didn't manage to convert any into hook-ups. The indications were more than a rattle. Often the tip would move a couple of inches and then stop. Would that mean the fish was feeling the resistance?

Has anyone any idea how to respond to this? Does a bobbin create less resistance in your view than a quiver tip? I realise a float would often be the answer, but sometimes that isn't possible - in this case there were a lot of swans!  What about a longer tail? Do you find this makes a difference when the fish are in a cautious mood?  How do matchmen respond to this kind of thing?

[Martin56]

Sometimes when fishing Maggot, hooking it in the middle, (just under the skin to keep it alive) will catch out a few. That way, there's a better chance of a hook up whichever end they choose to nip.

I also like using Red hooks when fishing Red Maggot!!

Bobbins IMO are best left to the Carpers??

Edited November 13, 2021 by Martin56

[Blackbird]

The tip is your first indication a bobbin would be useless, and not what this method is about. How do you set up your rig John? Do you use a free running set up a bolt rig or partial bolt....how long is your hook link. I was using a black cap feeder with maggot Saturday and I was getting too many rattles without a hook up, a change to a smaller size 14 hook to nylon resulted in a fish a chuck, if that had not worked go even smaller. Very often fish will attack the feeder giving false bites, I am sure you know all this so I am at a loss as to why you missed these indications. 

I think by using just maggots in a feeder can over feed and also make false indications due to feeder attacks, using ground  and a few maggots in the nix helps. 

Fishing for bites is my first objective, thus adjusting the rig to convert into bites rather than hoping things will get better. So scale down, think about hooklength, adjust to a bolt type effect rather than free running.

As the session progressed I found the smaller fish were fed, and I wanted to target thd better fish,a size 12 hook with 3 maggots on a straight lead accounted for a pb Perch and some hand sized Roach.

For me this type of fishing is like a breath of fresh air, too long I have been the victim of staring at a unmoving tip on the Barbel rods, for me worm and maggots are coming with me this Winter Oh! bread too, deadly for Chub and Roach.

 

 

 

[The Flying Tench]

Neil, congrats on your pb perch! How big was that?

I was using a free running rig with feeder and liquidised bread. Hook baits 4mm and 6mm pellets, also bread and I did briefly try maggot. The hook length was about 12". I'd be interested to hear how critical you and others think hook length is.

Yes, on reflection I hear what you say re using a bolt rig. I can see it could have converted some of those cautious bites. Grrr, silly me!

I'm also interested in what you say about 'fishing for bites.' Take the Thames here as an example. If I'm not getting bites on a bigger bait I could always switch to maggot feeder which would get me bleak and other micro-fish, but what's the point of that? I accept that there are rivers where eventually bigger fish would come into the swim and push the tiny ones out, but that certainly doesn't work on the Thames when the bleak are around. Still, maybe the Thames is an exception.

Oh, I forgot to say, what's wrong with a bobbin on a river? I'm not just thinking of the River Severn. Locally, on the Thames I've had some reasonable perch recently using a shaved down quiver tip, but I'm still aware of the need to minimise the resistance and I'm wondering if a bobbin with the rod pointed at the bait would be preferable

Edited November 15, 2021 by The Flying Tench

[Blackbird]

Hi John, I didn't weigh the Perch, but pretty sure I have not had a Perch that size before probably 2.5 lbs, not huge but they are good value.

The problem on the Thames is getting through the small stuff you say, must be a nightmare, maybe if you fished caster, worm or plastic maggot or caster on the hook might give you the edge? 

I wonder if the bigger Roach are in the shoal anyway, I am no expert, but what I have observed of big Roach in the BA is that they tend to hang out either on their own, or with similar larger fish. Observing them from the bridge they were about a dozen big fish completely devoid of juveniles. 

Consider Bob James Passion for Angling catch of Roach on the feeder, perhaps the most remarkable catch of any fish recorded on film. That is certainly I and you perhaps should revisit? 

All the fish in that catch were over 2lb, nothing less, again I witnessed large catches of big Roach on the BA on the waggler, all over pound and half. 

Not sure about bobbing John, I know appples are involved but that's about it.

Right, off to check out Passion....

 

[Peterjg]

Flying Tench, I think that you are right in that a bobbin can help.  I've done loads of tests in my back garden (luckily the neighbours can't see - they'd think I was crackers) with feeder rods and bobbins.  My experiments show that with a very soft quivertip a bobbin moves with less pull than the same bobbin with a stiffer quivertip - this is due to the greater curve of the soft tip causing less friction.  So if possible on the Thames and Kennet I try to point the rod at the bait and use as light a bobbin as possible.  I also put a float stop above the feeder to help hooking - the float stop is usually about 5 inches from the feeder but can be adjusted.  If casting up or downstream the length of the hooklink doesn't make a lot of difference because the flow will straighten the hooklink anyway but if casting straight ahead I prefer a shorter hooklink of only about 12inches because then the force of the strike is not lost so much.  This problem with beating resistance (especially with roach) is really difficult.  Nearly forgot, when upstream legering don't use a running lead - lots of bites won't register.

[The Flying Tench]

Ah, I think I've got it. And great to imagine you doing experiments! The conclusion says it all - if you are using a bobbin, point the rod at the bait. But that answers a different question from the one I was asking, which was: which is more sensitive, a sensitive quiver tip or a bobbin? It's clear you do use bobbins on the river for roach, but you may well use quiver tips as well. I'd be interested to hear your view on the straight choice between them.

[Blackbird]

Still not sure how a bobbin works on a river...I understand the Stillwater would be best suited for this though. I think we are overthinking the Roach bite as being too shy, my impressions are they are more positive than many other species, mind you the float is probably the better method in that a passing bait has to be snuffled before another fish does.

Roach in a shoal are very furtive, but once they as a shoal feel confident they feed well, perhaps these finniky bites are finniky roach that are not yet ready as a shoal to feed. 

It's a case of one in all in, one out all out!

Oh! and use a keepnet.

[Peterjg]

I certainly don't know all the answers that's for sure - but I do think that big roach in "normal" waters are the hardest of all fish to catch.  On rivers (when legering) if I had to choose between either a quivertip or a bobbin then I would choose the quivertip: but the further the fish pulls the greater the resistance.  However; using both can be better, the tip initially signals the bite and the correctly loaded bobbin gives the roach a bit of line before the tip resistance increases and it gives the angler a bit more time to react.  I also sometimes use a butt indicator that falls off so slack line is released as soon as the line tightens - probably over doing it but good fun!  My favourite method and probably the best is laying-on with the float flat on the surface (as recommended by John Wilson).  It's much nicer to watch a float but you are restricted to certain swims.  The problem with big roach is they are just so jittery, they spend their whole lives avoiding being eaten or caught, no wonder they mostly feed in low light.

[Blackbird]

Yes Peter I agree that Roach are a very cautious feeder, which is understandable as they are always a popular choice on the menu. But big bags of Roach do happen and of late even more so.

My own limited experience of big Roach concurs with you, in that they adopt a very cautious approach, but one thing in the Anglers favour they will at all cost stay tight to each other thus giving the angler a chance. 

When my then local Bristol Avon held quality Roach, I was fortunate to locate a small shoal of very big fish, looking down on them from a wooden bridge, they were dodging in and out of the bridge structure, very furtive. I have never before seen such big Roach, and probably never will again, there were a couple I swear were around the 4lb mark, and the smallest around 3. 

I had no tackle with me so raced home and grabbed my faithful Wilson Avon rod, nicked half a loaf of sliced white and prayed they would still be there when I returned.

Luckily they were, of course I had to draw the shoal away from the bridge, so I positioned myself in the reeds below the bridge. I mashed up a couple of handfuls of mash chucked in and waited, and waited...until dusk when I could see my chubber float bob around signalling fish activity, in all the time I had dared not recast for fear of spooking them, just hoping to get a positive bite from one fish. 

And I did, the float disappeared and I struck into solid resistance, how my heart held up I will never know, but it did and so did the crude tackle and a beautiful fin and scale perfect roach was in the net, it probably was the smallest in the shoal weighing in at 2.75lb, but I was made up, and I imagine will never beat that.

Happy New Year to you all !!