waterman1013

I don't think so Vagabond. The definitions are from the same EA NW Division which put the bylaw in place in the first place. I think they have probably given as much thought to this list as they did to the original bylaw!! Anyway the people who promoted it originally do not understand the international aspect of our sport now or apparently give a damn about removing the species which are causing the problem on these waters. Horses and stable doors comes to mind. Mike

Vagabond Grayling and char are covered under the definition of "all coarse fish", even though grayling has an adipose. Interesting question on worm fishing. Mike

Elton Have you looked in Motoring News? There always used be be pages of second user rally and race cars in there. Mike

HRH Queen Elizabeth II is their Patron. Mike

Chesters1 Just to assuage your bigotted view of the world in Africa, the central government of Nigeria is trying to stop this penalty being carried out in the northern, Muslim, part of the country under Sharia Law. This law has no standing nationally but the Government is powerless in defending human rights against the mass of the people and the power of the Mullahs in the north. If you had read any of the decent national papers in this country you would know that this has been an ongoing campaign to save this woman with backing from across the world, including many Muslim countries. Personally I find your remarks on these boards increasingly offensive. And using Churchill as an avatar is offensive to the memory of a Great Briton. Perhaps you should change it to someone who more accurately reflects your view of the world. Churchill was a great liberal, even when he lead the Tories. Mike

Congratulations Elton and Mrs Elton. I am with Newt on this, mine are on their way, one with a new flat and one at Uni. The house is so quiet and we suddenly have all this space, still it won't be long before I fill it with more tackle. Well done mate, I sincerely hope all goes well. Mike

Buy an Apple G4 and get control of your computer and drive. Mike

ROFLOLACLAB Nice one, Chris. Mike

Is it just me or do others think it looks like the top half of Donald Duck's face, with fancy writing on! Mike

SAA. What are we working on at the moment? Live bait ban in NW – timescale, since the proposals were first mooted “why on earth wasn't such opposition to the proposed new bye-laws tabled at an earlier date by the SAA? Or any I missing something very obvious here? Or, is it as I suspect, a great opportunity to oppose the ban was missed by the SAA?” Malc, we were on the case, even before the NW bylaw proposals were published, and have been ever since, along with PAC, the eel groups and NAA. Unfortunately they were supported by “anglers” sitting on the regional board. Endocrine disrupters in fresh and salt water – timescale, more than two years Otter predation of still waters – timescale more than four years Cormorant predation – timescale, more than five years The close season on rivers – timescale, more than five years Fish movements – timescale, more than five years Common Fisheries Policy – timescale, more than two years Marine Aquaculture – timescale more than one year Gravel extraction at sea – timescale, less than six months Monitoring the antis – timescale, more than twenty years Safety of anglers while fishing – timescale, more than four years Meeting with DEFRA, Alun Michael – forthcoming Meeting with Martin Salter – forthcoming Meeting with RFA – recent past Funding for angling – timescale, more than three years Forthcoming membership drive Developing website and updating – timescale, ongoing Angling shows and conferences, just to list a few. Who are we working with? NAA, NFA, NFAS, S&TA, NAFAC, ATA, SACN, BASS, PAC, The Carp Society, ECHO, CEFAS, EA, DEFRA, DCMS, The Home Office, WWF, RSPB, BTO, Swan Sanctuary, river catchment consultatives, EAA, RFA, to name but a few. Poor PR, yes. Who is doing all of the above? About six of us, in SAA! Maybe as many as twentyfive, throughout angling. Sorry guys but those figures make me wonder whether the sport deserves what it gets. Which is more important; doing the work, or telling you guys what fantastic representation you have? In my book doing the work is the important piece. We can safely rely on others for spin. There is enough on these boards for the whole of angling. Problems between SAA and RSSG? No. Problems between individuals? Apparently, yes. If people are so paranoid that they find it impossible to believe what they are told, by many individuals, then they will always have problems functioning in any group. If trust is so fragile then nothing can be achieved. I think some of you guys need to check the record carefully to see who has been doing the work and who has been shouting about it. You won’t find too many postings here from SAA shouting about our work. You will find many asking you to support various campaigns. How many bothered? Quite a few, I am pleased to say. Reading these postings is like reading your daily paper, mostly it is spin, from one persons viewpoint, perhaps even this posting is guilty of that. Or it is opinion founded on incomplete knowledge. We all learn something new every day on most of the issues we are pursuing. If you believe everything that is written here by “angling spokesmen” and are always willing to assume the worst of others, what do you expect to get? I have not responded to the various posts regarding the RSSG, of which I am proud to be a member. There is and was no hidden agenda, between me and other individuals or between the two organisations. There is still, from my position, no antagonism towards those who are accused of attacking me. Angling is too important for any of that to matter. Steve Richardson and I get on well and are in pretty constant communication on a number of topics. It has not always been the case but we have always had respect for each other, even when we disagree. And neither of us have descended into personal abuse or antagonism. There is no place for that between mature adults, working for a common goal. If you want to find out what the SAA position is on the future of angling representation and the NAA, visit the SAA pages, which Elton kindly hosts for us. It is all there and has been for months. And yes, a lot of it was prepared and written by me. Apparently some view that as a bad thing. Personally I could not give a damn what they think. They are not and have not been doing it, even though they have been making a lot of noise recently. The statement regarding National Angling representation was approved by the NAA members, so they know precisely where SAA is coming from and what we hope to achieve. The governing bodies do not share our view. I won’t waste time responding to every question and topic on these boards which mentions SAA. Life is too short and for me angling is only part of a very full life. But I will occasionally post a personal view, with the benefit of inside knowledge, as to how the system actually works. That is the important difference between those who shout about how much they should be told, by groups they do not even support, and those who operate in the real world, where negotiations are private and, particularly, those elected to Parliament want to protect their positions from too much scrutiny. We may not like it but that, surprisingly to some, is how the real world operates. If anglers can be so easily swayed to join or not to join a representative body, that says a lot more about the individual concerned than it does about the body in question. Think about it. Mike Heylin

SAA. What are we working on at the moment? Live bait ban in NW – timescale, since the proposals were first mooted “why on earth wasn't such opposition to the proposed new bye-laws tabled at an earlier date by the SAA? Or any I missing something very obvious here? Or, is it as I suspect, a great opportunity to oppose the ban was missed by the SAA?” Malc, we were on the case, even before the NW bylaw proposals were published, and have been ever since, along with PAC, the eel groups and NAA. Unfortunately they were supported by “anglers” sitting on the regional board. Endocrine disrupters in fresh and salt water – timescale, more than two years Otter predation of still waters – timescale more than four years Cormorant predation – timescale, more than five years The close season on rivers – timescale, more than five years Fish movements – timescale, more than five years Common Fisheries Policy – timescale, more than two years Marine Aquaculture – timescale more than one year Gravel extraction at sea – timescale, less than six months Monitoring the antis – timescale, more than twenty years Safety of anglers while fishing – timescale, more than four years Meeting with DEFRA, Alun Michael – forthcoming Meeting with Martin Salter – forthcoming Meeting with RFA – recent past Funding for angling – timescale, more than three years Forthcoming membership drive Developing website and updating – timescale, ongoing Angling shows and conferences, just to list a few. Who are we working with? NAA, NFA, NFAS, S&TA, NAFAC, ATA, SACN, BASS, PAC, The Carp Society, ECHO, CEFAS, EA, DEFRA, DCMS, The Home Office, WWF, RSPB, BTO, Swan Sanctuary, river catchment consultatives, EAA, RFA, to name but a few. Poor PR, yes. Who is doing all of the above? About six of us, in SAA! Maybe as many as twentyfive, throughout angling. Sorry guys but those figures make me wonder whether the sport deserves what it gets. Which is more important; doing the work, or telling you guys what fantastic representation you have? In my book doing the work is the important piece. We can safely rely on others for spin. There is enough on these boards for the whole of angling. Problems between SAA and RSSG? No. Problems between individuals? Apparently, yes. If people are so paranoid that they find it impossible to believe what they are told, by many individuals, then they will always have problems functioning in any group. If trust is so fragile then nothing can be achieved. I think some of you guys need to check the record carefully to see who has been doing the work and who has been shouting about it. You won’t find too many postings here from SAA shouting about our work. You will find many asking you to support various campaigns. How many bothered? Quite a few, I am pleased to say. Reading these postings is like reading your daily paper, mostly it is spin, from one persons viewpoint, perhaps even this posting is guilty of that. Or it is opinion founded on incomplete knowledge. We all learn something new every day on most of the issues we are pursuing. If you believe everything that is written here by “angling spokesmen” and are always willing to assume the worst of others, what do you expect to get? I have not responded to the various posts regarding the RSSG, of which I am proud to be a member. There is and was no hidden agenda, between me and other individuals or between the two organisations. There is still, from my position, no antagonism towards those who are accused of attacking me. Angling is too important for any of that to matter. Steve Richardson and I get on well and are in pretty constant communication on a number of topics. It has not always been the case but we have always had respect for each other, even when we disagree. And neither of us have descended into personal abuse or antagonism. There is no place for that between mature adults, working for a common goal. If you want to find out what the SAA position is on the future of angling representation and the NAA, visit the SAA pages, which Elton kindly hosts for us. It is all there and has been for months. And yes, a lot of it was prepared and written by me. Apparently some view that as a bad thing. Personally I could not give a damn what they think. They are not and have not been doing it, even though they have been making a lot of noise recently. The statement regarding National Angling representation was approved by the NAA members, so they know precisely where SAA is coming from and what we hope to achieve. The governing bodies do not share our view. I won’t waste time responding to every question and topic on these boards which mentions SAA. Life is too short and for me angling is only part of a very full life. But I will occasionally post a personal view, with the benefit of inside knowledge, as to how the system actually works. That is the important difference between those who shout about how much they should be told, by groups they do not even support, and those who operate in the real world, where negotiations are private and, particularly, those elected to Parliament want to protect their positions from too much scrutiny. We may not like it but that, surprisingly to some, is how the real world operates. If anglers can be so easily swayed to join or not to join a representative body, that says a lot more about the individual concerned than it does about the body in question. Think about it. Mike Heylin

Yes Steve, good morning. The EU will be making proposals next year for legislation on toxins in the environment and hardening exisitng EU legislation on water quality. SAA/NAA/Moran/NAFAC/EA/EN/WWF are all working together to put the strongest position paper together that we can, to get the legislation that is needed to protect the water environment. There is a short report in your minutes of Sunday. More will be published as it becomes available. So for all those doubters who think NAA etc are a waste of space, things are being done. Thank God for NAFAC/SAA/WWF who have the specialisms on board to carry the Water Framework Directive forward. Mike

It's good this fishing thing. While all this has been going on I have had three trips, longest 90 minutes, and caught on every trip. All carp, all doubles. Next stop the river and some zeds. PG Mike

Go here to show solidarity with our American cousins http://www.flowgo.com/ChainOfRemembrance/ Mike

I have one. It has been in my possession for thirty years but is still in good order. The software works fine and response times are normally good. Keyboarding can be a bit sticky occasionally but a quick rub down with the Sporting Life seems to work wonders. Now how much do you want for your laptop? Mike

Aberdeen "Is there one national body to which all anglers should subscribe to ensure our voice is heard?" Unfortunately not yet. If you look at the SAA pages via the link to the left of the AnglersNet front page you can see the structures as it is now and a view of the future for angling from SAA. Mike

If you go to the SAA pages on this site you will find there a policy statement, “SAA and the NAA” from SAA on what we want to achieve through NAA. You will also see an agreed statement of structures within angling, “Structures in National Angling Representation”. I have written privately to both Lee and Steve on their non-receipt of minutes and agendas. It is a private SAA matter and I will not comment in public on internal SAA business. Ray Wood has not yet had the courtesy to express himself to me about this situation but rather seems to think public forums are the place to do so. He would be well off not jumping to conclusions. I should point out that for all the posting on this thread no one has approached me directly to complain of lack of minutes or agendas for the last meeting. It has all come to me second hand. I could go on at length about the blame culture which this country suffers from, but would just point out that if you never do anything then you can never make a mistake. Peter your last post is wrong on all counts. The business of the meeting was conducted according to the constitution of SAA. Have a nice day Mike Heylin

Regardless of what organisation she may or may not represent it is important that anglers respond to such letters and I have sent the response below to the Oxford Mail. Feel free to use it as you need. Dear Sir You recently published a letter from Theresa Thom who gives an address in Central London. This letter is part of an orchestrated campaign against angling and has been published in Cambridge, Oxford, Peterborough, Shropshire and . A pastime which many of your readers locally will participate in and from which many local businesses will benefit because of angling tourism. The use of emotional language like “evil” “grotesquely cruel” and “evil practice” show her to be much more than an uninterested observer but a member of the animal rights movement parading herself as a concerned individual. She is certainly well briefed and appears to be part of the animal rights movement. Those “nice people” who send bombs to scientists, bully and cajole employees of legitimate businesses and cause environmental havoc by releasing non-native species, e.g. mink, into the wild, where they do untold damage to our native species and their habitat. Her “facts” are wrong, fish are cold blooded and there is no scientific evidence to show they feel pain, even though the animal rights movement claim that there is - the now discredited Medway Report. If they felt pain, in the way that you and I understand it, they would not be able to eat fresh water crustaceans, molluscs and other hard shelled food items. Indeed recent work on pain receptors and cold blooded creatures indicates that they have no sense of “pain”. Fish do not suffer in properly used keepnets, there is ample scientific evidence to show this. Fish do not suffer when hooked, repeat catches of the same fish in a short space of time show this. Fish when handled properly do not suffer in the hands of anglers. More than five million anglers in the UK enjoy the sport, enjoy our countryside and enjoy the environment, travel to localities such as yours and spend more than five billion pounds a year on their sport, much of that locally. It is anglers who have protected our rivers from pollution and worked with Governments of all persuasions to improve the lot of our aquatic wildlife. It is anglers who continue to monitor the state of our nations rivers. It is anglers who first report problems to the Environment Agency. It is anglers who raise millions of pounds each year to help pay for that same Agency and its vital work. Do not let yourself be mislead by these “animal activists”, who know nothing of the realities of life for most of us in the country and care even less. Yours sincerely Michael Heylin Secretary Specialist Anglers Alliance Specialist Anglers Alliance represents some ten thousand big fish anglers and is a member of the National Angling Alliance which represents more than one million anglers in Britain.

Regardless of what organisation she may or may not represent it is important that anglers respond to such letters and I have sent the response below to the Oxford Mail. Feel free to use it as you need. Dear Sir You recently published a letter from Theresa Thom who gives an address in Central London. This letter is part of an orchestrated campaign against angling and has also been published in Cambridge, Peterborough and Shropshire. Angling is a pastime which many of your readers locally will participate in and from which many local businesses will benefit because of angling tourism. The use of emotional language like “evil” “grotesquely cruel” and “evil practice” show her to be much more than an uninterested observer but a member of the animal rights movement parading herself as a concerned individual. She is certainly well briefed and appears to be part of the animal rights movement. Those “nice people” who send bombs to scientists, bully and cajole employees of legitimate businesses and cause environmental havoc by releasing non-native species, e.g. mink, into the wild, where they do untold damage to our native species and their habitat. Her “facts” are wrong, fish are cold blooded and there is no scientific evidence to show they feel pain, even though the animal rights movement claim that there is - the now discredited Medway Report. If they felt pain, in the way that you and I understand it, they would not be able to eat fresh water crustaceans, molluscs and other hard shelled food items. Indeed recent work on pain receptors and cold blooded creatures indicates that they have no sense of “pain”. Fish do not suffer in properly used keepnets, there is ample scientific evidence to show this. Fish do not suffer when hooked, repeat catches of the same fish in a short space of time show this. Fish when handled properly do not suffer in the hands of anglers. More than five million anglers in the UK enjoy the sport, enjoy our countryside and enjoy the environment, travel to localities such as yours and spend more than five billion pounds a year on their sport, much of that locally. It is anglers who have protected our rivers from pollution and worked with Governments of all persuasions to improve the lot of our aquatic wildlife. It is anglers who continue to monitor the state of our nations rivers. It is anglers who first report problems to the Environment Agency. It is anglers who raise millions of pounds each year to help pay for that same Agency and its vital work. Do not let yourself be mislead by these “animal activists”, who know nothing of the realities of life for most of us in the country and care even less. Yours sincerely Michael Heylin Secretary Specialist Anglers Alliance Specialist Anglers Alliance represents some ten thousand big fish anglers and is a member of the National Angling Alliance which represents more than one million anglers in Britain.

Steve “I appreciate that you have just returned recently from a funeral in Ireland but know for a fact you were back before Sunday 21st July and not as suggested in your reply as 31st July.....I am sure the letter arrived on the 31st.....all this shows, is that it took two days longer for the letter to arrive down south.” I like a man who knows his facts, as you presume to do. I was in Ireland for a funeral on July 18th and 19th, returning on the 20th. I was in Ireland for another funeral on 29th July and 30th July returning on 31st. The letter was posted to me on the 26th and, I presume, arrived on Monday 29th. I saw it on my return on the 31st, when I posted here. A simply apology for blackening my name will suffice. Can we now get to preventing this happening again in the future instead of discussing my diary dates and trying to score points off each other. Phil check your mail box. Mike

"If this came law on the 26th July, why have we not heard from the likes of the SAA on this crap judgement." Possibly Steve because we in SAA, just like everone else, had the letter to us posted on the 26th July. It came to me and was sitting on my desk this morning (Wednesday 31st) when I returned from a funeral in Ireland. I have spent the afternoon writing a piece for the next New Specialist Angler magazine on the topic and brushing up a response to DEFRA and EA NW for selling us down the river. Then I got on with some club business and have just dropped in here before completing the piece for NSA. SAA will not normally publish its first response on any websites. In this instance the first response will go to DEFRA and EA, where we hope it will do most good. The EA NW are quick enough to pounce on anglers now, even when the anglers concerned cannot possibly know of the change, but they are still doing nothing to remove from the water courses those fish they "claim" are causing the problem. NW were not supported by EA Bristol in their arguments and I am amazed that Elliot Morley has been suckered like this. He used the S&FWFR to justify the decision before he made it and I believe has been sitting waiting for the summer recess to publish his decision so that he and DEFRA could avoid as much flack as possible. For those that are interested his address is; Elliot Morley M.P. Secretary of State DEFRA Nobel House 17 Smith Square London SW1P 3JR Do not blame the civil servants. This was proposed, or at least accepted, by anglers' representatives on the NW EA board. You can guarantee that they do not fish for pike, eels or perch. Perhaps next time PAC, SAA or one of the other angling organisations asks their members and other anglers for support, even more will take the time to object. Mike

I buy The Big Issue whenever I am in town. I also spend time talking to the sellers, because I once read that loneliness is the biggest problem for anyone living on the streets. I find it a good read. It raises matters of concern to many of us and by buying it I think I might be helping some of the sellers to get off the street and back into mainstream life. Thatcher once said "There is no such thing as society." Some of the posts here indicate as much. How can so many care so little for their fellow man? Mike [ 26 July 2002, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: waterman1013 ]

Shame they seem to have forgotten that some of us actually use flies and fish for swimmy things with adipose fins. Mike

Thanks Jim I couldn't find it anywhwhere. Mike

Thanks Jim I couldn't find it anywhwhere. Mike