Angling Trust call for otter management

[lutra]

Lutra, you plead for giving"nature" time to find a balance..............one pair of Otters.............one fish each per day..............then they have young, so several fish a day for several months...........upwards of 1500 fish a year? Not an unreasonable figure surely? Where is the balance? I would call that serious damage to any fishery....even a river.

That's why fish don't just have 2.4 children, on a natural healthy waters anyway.

 

Do you have any idea how many fish are produced every year on a natural healthy water/river?

 

I guess waters like the Wensum are just not natural healthy waters and are suffering for that.

Edited February 18, 2010 by lutra

[Anderoo]

Sorry Jeff, that post is pretty much gibberish and even if I wanted to reply to it, I wouldn't even know where to start.

 

OK, fine, yes I want to 'stock' Wingham with otters so they eat all the bream.

 

Spring is round the corner, indeed.

[Worms]

Fair point Andrew and well said indeed. Keep a cool head, spring is around the corner and many sunny days on the bank ahead of us all. We have only been "discussing something we feel strongly about" and maybe this subject has been done to death now.

 

Before finishing though, Den's question about stocking Otters into Wingham (a water well managed and stock controlled specifically to encourage specimen growth potentials and fished by yourself) was very pertinent to the whole discussion and certainly worthy of a simple Yes or NO answer to finish this thread. Den identified the difference between theory and what you would want in practice.

 

Say you owned Wingham (or if you like... an identical fishery), would you want to "stock" a few Otters, and thats the rub of it really....it almost certainly would ruin a life times work (*). The massive wingham bream "small in number but huge in size" would not stand a chance, many many years to grow and a few minutes to catch and kill. By answering YES thats what you would be advocating......before considering the specimen tench, perch and carp.

 

I just cant see you saying YES. For the same reason I also dont know of any fishing club or club membership ever asking their committee to introduce Otters "to create the perfect balanced fishery".

 

(*) Apologies to those reading this that dont know of the sterling work Mr Steve Burke and his crew are doing down in Kent. Top Marks.

With respect Jeff, I don't think that Den was asking how many otters should be stocked at Wingham. I believe it was a slightly sarcastic rhetorical question.

 

I wouldn't "stock" otters on any water. Firstly it would be illegal and secondly, they'll find their own way there eventually. My knowledge of otters leads me to believe that in a more natural style of fishery such as Wingham, the majority of fish predated would be small fish, as is their style in natural, unpressurised waters.

 

As for how "to create the perfect balanced fishery", that's easy. Let nature get on with it, Humans only ever **** it up!

[poledark]

I never suggested that ANY water should be "stocked" with Otters. I asked ( a serious question, not sarcasm) how many pair could a water like Wingham sustain, without affecting the fishing. It is a FISHERY, not a wildlife park. I used Wingham as an example of a well managed, but also well stocked fishery, in an unspoilt location. It would be an act of vandalism to erect close mesh fencing all around (even if the new owner allowed it) Had I mentioned MKF waters, it would have meant nothing to most readers.

 

I use the words "well stocked" but the fish in there have grown on or been bred in the lake in the absence of Otters. How many would there be if Otters had been predating on them for years?

 

Worms, you are at it again, "in your expert opinion" they would "prefer to eat the small fish"....Wingham is full of large fish....eight pound tench galore.....Big Macs for Otters.

 

On the subject of "finding a natural balance" is it not the case that the number of predators usually rises in proportion to the food available? And would that number start to fall (move on) as the supply diminished? Happens in every "natural" situation. Or are we to accept that only Otters "find a natural balance" ?

 

Den

 

Den

[Worms]

Den, otters, in a natural environment, generally take smaller fish. They will take large fish but this is usually when those fish are sick, injured, overcrowded in a small pond or otherwise disadvantaged. If you find that hard to believe then investigate the contents of spraints from a natural fishery.

 

Otters will also not spread themselves out around a lake in high concentrations because there is an abundant supply of fish. They are highly territorial animals that will become very aggressive towards others, even to the point where a dominant dog otter will kill (in extreme cases) "invaders" on his territory. It is not in the otter's interests to eat all of the fish on his territory for obvious reasons. They don't move on, they stay where the food supply is sustainable which is what happens in almost all "natural" situations........it's why animals have territories!

[Tigger]

Worms, you are at it again, "in your expert opinion" they would "prefer to eat the small fish"....Wingham is full of large fish....eight pound tench galore.....Big Macs for Otters.

 

 

Den

 

 

Wingham must also be full of smaller fish if not then there's something amiss, maybe the fish are on contraseptives ....doubtfull . On the last fish in there was a hatch and the top of the water was bubbling with roach...surley they're smallish fish Den.

[Worms]

What about culling otters Den, how would it work? If you remove an otter from a territory then, naturally a new one will take its place. If you tried a badger type cull and exterminated say, 10,000 otters (whoops that's more than the UK population), ok, 100 otters from an area and, the rivers are still being improved (let's just argue that it's just for anglers) for fish breeding habitat, then the otters will come back into those areas very quickly.

 

The best way of stopping otters or any other animal from moving into an environment is to make the habitat unsuitable. So, we canalise and dredge the rivers, remove any fish cover and hey presto! No otters. Obviously they may well move in to prey on any unprotected fish farms/stocked ponds but if you take the fish out of them too, well, you've solved the problem, no otters again.

 

Ok, the fishing will be crap but imagine how much money could be made from trapping and selling signal crayfish once all of their predators have gone! Of course we'd also lose the kingfishers, the herons that you film so nicely, the cormorants (which should please John Wilson) oh yes I suppose the pike, perch and all of the other fish would disappear as well but, somebody, somewhere would have had the sense to fence his pond and would be charging a £1,000 a day for the pleasure of fishing it. One downside I suppose would be the rapid explosion of mink and the corresponding decrease in water voles and birds but hey, we have to make the odd sacrifice.

 

Lose the otters, lose the fish. Keep improving the habitats and have an abundance of both and the other associated wildlife.

 

The figures? 117 otters were re-introduced to the UK, the last ones 11 years ago. Habitat improvement has led to an increase in fish and otters. The anglers that seem to be supporting the otters are those that predominantly fish natural waterbodies and specifically rivers. The ones against otters seem to be those that fish predominantly artificial and/or stocked waters. Ok, it might be a bit of a drag if you fish that type of water and if otters are "decimating" your stocks but the natural waters are improving. A small sacrifice to make to restore the natural wildlife of our over-populated little island don't you agree?

[Tigger]

A small sacrifice to make to restore the natural wildlife of our over-populated little island don't you agree?

 

 

I for one do agree, and anyone with an ounce of common sense will also....IMO of course.

[Jeffwill]

What about culling otters Den, how would it work? If you remove an otter from a territory then, naturally a new one will take its place. If you tried a badger type cull and exterminated say, 10,000 otters (whoops that's more than the UK population), ok, 100 otters from an area and, the rivers are still being improved (let's just argue that it's just for anglers) for fish breeding habitat, then the otters will come back into those areas very quickly.

 

The best way of stopping otters or any other animal from moving into an environment is to make the habitat unsuitable. So, we canalise and dredge the rivers, remove any fish cover and hey presto! No otters. Obviously they may well move in to prey on any unprotected fish farms/stocked ponds but if you take the fish out of them too, well, you've solved the problem, no otters again.

 

Ok, the fishing will be crap but imagine how much money could be made from trapping and selling signal crayfish once all of their predators have gone! Of course we'd also lose the kingfishers, the herons that you film so nicely, the cormorants (which should please John Wilson) oh yes I suppose the pike, perch and all of the other fish would disappear as well but, somebody, somewhere would have had the sense to fence his pond and would be charging a £1,000 a day for the pleasure of fishing it. One downside I suppose would be the rapid explosion of mink and the corresponding decrease in water voles and birds but hey, we have to make the odd sacrifice.

 

Lose the otters, lose the fish. Keep improving the habitats and have an abundance of both and the other associated wildlife.

 

The figures? 117 otters were re-introduced to the UK, the last ones 11 years ago. Habitat improvement has led to an increase in fish and otters. The anglers that seem to be supporting the otters are those that predominantly fish natural waterbodies and specifically rivers. The ones against otters seem to be those that fish predominantly artificial and/or stocked waters. Ok, it might be a bit of a drag if you fish that type of water and if otters are "decimating" your stocks but the natural waters are improving. A small sacrifice to make to restore the natural wildlife of our over-populated little island don't you agree?

 

 

I am going to try not to waste much more time on otter threads, as a large part of these threads

is purely theorising. I for one have reported actual problems on river stetches I have witnessed and recorded (dwindling catches over 3 years starting after otters arrived) so I am not interested in somebody else's theory on what, if, why, might be the cause.

 

When posts were made from anglers based in Norfolk reporting problems together with photographic evidence of fish kills (where a number of otters are acknowledged to have been introduced) I did not mention or pass comment. I believe they have the right to have a moan. Good luck to them.

 

Sorry if this sounds like gibberish but its fair to say some area's have problems and some dont, depends where you live and where you fish. Apologies, there goes me theorising now

[Worms]

Sorry if this sounds like gibberish but its fair to say some area's have problems and some dont, depends where you live and where you fish. Apologies, there goes me theorising now

I totally agree with you Jeff. The areas with the least otter "problems" are the natural fisheries. Those with the most, the artificial fisheries or fisheries with other problems.