Time to end the Pantomime

[wurzel]

Perhaps I should present Clive's potted history for what it is worth, but something that i have researched and used to teach.

 

There is plenty of evidence that the war years did allow a mojor recovery of fish stock, but post war feeding the nation was predominately dependant upon the large fleets of offshore vessels based at Grimsby , Hull Fleetwood and Aberdeen. Lowestoft serviced the Southern North Sea, Milford Haven the Southern Irish Sea and Brixham and Newlyn the English Channel, Grounds fished were of course our coastal waters and the Arctic regions. Only a few UK ships ever went to the Grand banks. Other coastal ports supported inshore fisheries for local markets. During the late 60's and early 70's the cod wars with Iceland emerged and eventually this lead to international agreement of 200mile EEZs which were agreed to protect both fisheries and mineral rights. Around 1983 we joined the CFP as a reult of our acceptance EEC and agreed to sacrifice most of our fishing rights as part of the deal to join the EEC club. Iceland and Norway stayed out of the EEC club to protect their natural resources. The UK due to the arrogance of the British trawlers federation lost any access to Icelandic waters and hence the UK deepwater fleet was de-commissioned with many vessels going into oil-rig standby work.

 

During the 70's and 80's a lot of other things were happening. One aspect was technological development with fish finding and navigation equipment, running in parrell with advances in computer technology. In adition fishing gear technology and fishing vessel technology went through a period of technological advance, and this was supported by both government and EEC policy and funding driven by the need to harvest more fish from within eec waters as a result of the loss of Icelandic fishing grounds. Fish stocks during the 70's appeared to be at an all time high and the technological and financial support given through the 80s put huge pressure on our coastal resources. By the end of the 80's the scientists started to see significant damage being done to stocks and the legislators started to put the brakes on with the introduction of quotas and quota management being the tool to solve all ills! Regrettably this lead to the 'Black Fish years' a decade of illegal landings believed to be in the region of 40% over the official quotas. This just added presure to already existing stock decline for many species.

During the 80's our beloved Mrs Thatcher finally conquered the Unions and all thos protective practices which had forced the coastal fishing industry away from the NDLB ports and hence lead to Fraserburgh and Peterhead being the dominant UK ports

Alongside this had been the introduction of multi-rig trawling, twin beam trawling, wreck netting and the use of rock hopper footropes on trawls which allowed no patch of ground to be left un-touched. During the 90's the EU was introducing problem solving fisheries legislation on an almost weekly basis, hence creating the most complex and un-workable set of Eurupean fisheries laws, known as the Blue Book. Through the 1990s and 2000 every sector of the fishing industry was harshly penalised and fleets decimated in an attempt to make fisheries sustainable.

We as anglers have suffered the consequences of all this in terms of what we catch today and what our dads or grandads caught. Technological developments have also assisted anglers as they have commercial fishermen.

As has been stated other factors such as warmer sea temperatures has lead to bass and pollock being caught much further north, and maybe a spell of cold winters such as this one will change all that again, who knows? I am sure the scientists will fave fun writhing reports about it and discussing it in their ICES working groups.

 

In my personal opinion many fish stocks have suffered a significant decline from the early 70's which has been driven by Government policy and technological advancement which out ran the scientific and political ability to manage the situation. We cannot turn the clock back and we will have to live with what is left. However I do believe that the introduction of no-take zones will attempt to put back a situation that existed in the 60's before fishing technology allowed us to fish every bit of hard ground that exists. "Perhaps bits of hard ground should be the no take zones"! Maybe that would upset the commercials too much. Whether anglers should be excluded from these zones is up for debate but we have little sympathy from the commercial sector.

 

Well folks this was my potted history of the fishing industry, may I wish you all a very prosperous and happy 2010, although that may be difficult in this time of Austerity.

 

Tight Lines

Clive

 

Hello Clive

 

I've done a post that I will enter shortly on similar lines, not quite so in depth with the politics.

My thoughts on a couple of points you have made .

 

Quote

"stock decline for many species"

 

I don't believe this to be true, Cod were in decline from an all time high during the 70's, when any body talks of fish stocks in decline cod is the one species they have in mind, and I believe the EU used this and still are as a battle axe against British interests.

 

Quote

" and the use of rock hopper footropes on trawls which allowed no patch of ground to be left un-touched."

 

At the moment I'm reading a book on the memoirs of a retired NE coast fishermen who mentions using rock hopper gear as early as the late 60's, 20 years before your reference to it and it is more of a northern technique for white fish further south and west the hard ground has little attention from trawlers, I once mentioned this to the late John Brennon, the reply " w'll ya can'a dig tha soles out o solid rock" and that's about right with soles being the main target species of the southern trawlers and not a species targeted by many RSA.

I personally don't believe the introduction of the MPA's will have much of a noticeable effect on fish stocks in general, a few resident species perhaps will benefit, I also believe that the introduction of MPA's is more to do with job creation for the management as with recent severe restrictions on the inshore fleet means there will be little else to manage in the near future.

[Bob Shotter]

Come on then, Bob, let's have the benefit of your 40 years experience. What do you suggest sea anglers do with regard the the MCZ projects?

 

Serious question.

 

First up Happy New Year to you all, let’s hope 2011 is not a year doom and gloom and that you all have a prosperous and successful fishing time in the months ahead.

 

So on to the topic in hand and my response to Steve’s question.

Before I start on that can I say thank you to Clive for his excellent historical post which would seem to be very similar to mine. Also nice to see Barry wade into the subject and I would point out that although we are working together on the RSA-UK project we do have differences of opinion.

 

Right then what I recommend Steve is that we concentrate on our sport/recreational pursuit and not concern our self with the commercial or any other stakeholder group, keep an eye on what they want and how it might effect us by all means.

 

The art of getting a result in the political field is to be in at the table where the decisions are made. Now that happens before the consultation period, in the various committee rooms and while we will not be able to physically be there, it is down to us to see that our views are.

 

So the game plan will be to establish which of our politicians are going to sit on these committees and in the very short period of time from when the JNCC recommendations are known we will have to lobby these politicians with some vigor and strong argument.

 

Further more we need to plan now so I would suggest RSA take a worse case scenario in which recommendations are for NTZs for all and in many areas as a possibility and be ready to negotiate from there to defend the rights we currently have.

 

The hardest thing will be getting anglers to agree on what they think is necessary and from that point of view would warn you that like it or not the AT and it’s many conservation minded members are up and running and while they have only few members in comparison to the total participants they are as yet the only org with an RSA connection.

 

Hope that’s enough to get you started on so for now it's

Tight Lines Bob

[Steve Coppolo]

Good luck!

[wurzel]

Well gentlemen I was asking a very open question without trying to direct the answer. That however was probably not the best option so it might help to glen some info if I now respond with my views.

 

A bench mark of the fifties has been suggested by Ken personally I would prefer to start at the end of the WW2 which was before my time I hasten to add. At this time some say the fin fish had, as a result of reduced effort during the conflict, recovered well and there was a plentiful supply of easy to catch, cheep food for our nation.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

References to recovered stocks after WW2 are to the large off shore fleets of the time and no doubt lack of effort played a part but it also coincided with a massive year class of haddock of which was making up the bulk of catches, this has happened on a few occasions since despite heavy fishing pressure.

I think there was still a traditional inshore fleet working during the war although reduced due to younger men off fighting, there are several accounts of fishing boats being attacked or sunk by mines.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

As a very young lad, in the mid to late fifties I recall seeing huge shoals of mackerel from the cliffs of the north Cornish coast. Then in the early sixties we had reports of huge factory ships hovering up these fish at an alarming rate, now that would have been well off shore as we at the time had control of our 200mile limit, at least where that was not impeded with other nations limits.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I remember it well and it was the early seventies and was a yearly event for a few years, unless you are aware of another episode before my time, as I remember the foreign factory ships did not fish but were anchored in Falmouth Bay and the English and mainly Scottish boats catching the fish and off loading the catches to them, I remember reports of large catches of small unwanted fish being caught and dumped polluting the grounds for other fishermen.

It never interfered with my fishing and never had a problem catching mackerel either for bait on a charter boat from Brixham or Plymouth also when spending many hours standing shoulder to shoulder on Painton Pier or Torquay harbour wall with every body catching mackerel after mackerel on light float tackle, some thing I used to do regally until the nineties with no sign of a shortage of mackerel.

The pelagic fleet now has MSC certification for their mackerel fishery with the stock very abundant.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any way the thing is it was not long before along came the CFP and our own commercial fleet where having to venture further a field to meet the demand.

 

We joined the French Spanish and other nations in the Newfoundland waters leading some say to the collapse in Cod stock there though other commentators point the blame else where.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you will find that we were fishing the Grand banks some 300 years before the CFP and over the years there are several reports of the cod fishing there collapsing with merchants and ship owners going bankrupt, the collapse in the sixties was the first to blame over fishing.

_____________________________________________________________________

 

None the less there were then the Icelandic Cod wars followed by the introduction of CFP quotas all of which would suggest there was an impact on fish stocks.

_____________________________________________________________________

Nothing what so ever to do with impact on fish stocks, politics, Iceland wanted the cod for themselves and who could blame them, fish exports are just about their only industry and makes them self-sufficient where as before they were reliant on Denmark.

UK boats had been fishing Icelandic and Norwegian waters longer than they had the Grand Banks , I wonder why sail boats no bigger than what we would know consider inshore boats, from ports as far south as Harwich on the east and Fleetwood on the west coast of England voyage that far if as we are led to believe cod stocks were abundant in local waters.

The CFP was devised to divvy up the fishing rights of the nations of the European Union (EU) with the UK loosing out big time.

_____________________________________________________________________

 

 

 

As an RSA my thoughts are much more local though some of these events will have an effect as will that most unpredictable thing we call the weather along with slight tidal shifts particularly the track of the Gulf Stream.

_____________________________________________________________________

At least you are willing to agree that these things do have an effect.

_____________________________________________________________________

 

 

Inshore commercial fishing methods to have also changed drastically during my life time, with long lines replaced by tangle nets of vast length the introduction of gill nets, which some commentators say can be very selective.

_____________________________________________________________________

Gill nets have been used for thousands of years, the introduction of monofilament was the turning point in making them more efficient and easier to use effectively in a wider range of fisheries.

All nets are selective in the size of fish they catch which is governed by the size of the mesh, not so much selective on the species. A gill net or any other net used correctly and responsibly is no worse than any other method.

_____________________________________________________________________

 

 

Chesters 1 makes a valid point also, in that our ability to capture fish is much better than it once was, so easy to conclude then that fish stocks are indeed under pressure and that the commercial effort is having a detrimental effect.

_____________________________________________________________________

In some cases it is a valid point, it’s known as technical creep. In most cases technical creep allows you to keep up with inflation and inflation is the cause of demise of many fishermen, I’ve just worked out that the cost of my first house was the equivalent of 10 tonnes of cod that same house 30 years later now equates to 80 tonnes.

Years ago it was possible for 3 men in a small boat working a few lines to make a liveable wage as time goes by they can’t, not because they are catching less fish but the earnings don’t go far enough so those that invest in a modern boat that can catch more fish possibly with less crew survive and the normal progression normally means less boats but more efficient, another example would be the old 1950’s herring drifters with ten men on board at to days prices they would not be able to carry enough fish to pay the wage bill but a modern pelagic boat with 5 men is a different story, so instead of hundreds of drifters you have a hand full of modern pelagic boats.

As a detrimental effect on fish stocks I’m not so sure, there are so many variables where stocks fluctuate down just as they fluctuate upwards with fishing effort staying the same. It also depends on what species you are referring to and if you are referring to your local patch or to the stock nationally, for example I have no doubt I effect the RSA bass fishing on the areas I fish regularly but no way do I have any effect on the bass stock nationally , bass being an example of being heavily fished for as a non pressure stock (no quota) inshore as well as large boats pair trawling off shore, they are slow growing so we are led to believe vulnerable to over fishing yet the stock has increased in overall terms by numbers and range, then again cod despite savage cuts in quotas and days allowed at sea to fish for them and scrapping most of the white fish fleet until recently continued to decline and cod are very fast growing and capable of producing huge year classes of brood , So what was detrimental to cod stocks fishermen or conditions? Perhaps in some cases in the past with examples of bad practices a bit of both. These days I honestly believe that the Uk fleet as it is would be hardly capable of over fishing the local duck pond.

____________________________________________________________________

On the other hand nature would in some way suggest that things are not as bad as the conservationist claim, with good catch reports by RSA over the last couple of years. French and Spanish commercial boats are a common sight along the twelve mile line here in the south west again a pointer of good stock conditions, or theirs are very bad

 

While that is indeed very true there are still many species no longer caught in the numbers they once were. Halibut in the English Channel now very few and far between Common Skate around the IOW gone 40lb Cod gone and those mackerel shoals gone. Some will say they have simply gone some place else for one reason or another and that these fish are still out there which brings us back to the question are they? Oh yes they are!!!! Oh no their not!!!

 

tight lines Bob

 

_____________________________________________________________________

 

I’ve had some very good catches fishing six miles off the French coast.

For a large French boat twelve miles from your coast is not that far to travel . Spain has traditionally had a large nomadic fleet due to having a very narrow continental shelf so need to travel closer to the UK to catch the species that inhabit the shallower waters, I think Spain is restricted with only a few boats allowed to fish in certain areas with none as yet allowed in the North Sea.

I don’t know much about halibut or common skate in the English channel, I do know they are caught regularly other places with just as much commercial activity.

Were 40lb cod ever common? There are a splattering of 30 pound fish caught each year, one of 35 reported recently on Anglers Net, if we get anther gadoid explosion like there was during the early sixties, which I think could happen with the recent changes in our weather then 15 or 20 years later 30 or even the odd 40 pound cod would once again become more common.

Have the mackerel shoals gone? I was not aware that they have.

 

So at the end of all that waffle I believe they are still there some where in variable amounts as there is no evidence that they are extinct.

[steve good]

This is all pointless really, it all depends on your own perceptions, of what was, and what is now,some say there is no fish now, others say theres loads of fish hence the discards,some say bottom sets nets are sustainable way of fishing the truth is they and pot backlines do unseen and seen damage, but certain people dont see that, just like the most damaging thing there is, is aggregate dredging which takes away whole bio and geo-diverscities, thats 1500 miles of breeding and feeding grounds of most of our fish, the goverment have a vested interest in this, thats why they introduced the Marine Bill which takes away the public right to fish for anglers and commercial fishermen, the need for aggregate and wind farms overrides any angler or commercial fishermen needs or rights, we have no rights any more,every thing thats done in the creation of MPZ's and NTZ's is an illussion that demcrocy has taken place when in fact it is the implementation of a predetermined plan conceived to protect and enchance vested interest in aggregate and windfarms, I believe everything to do with the Marine Bill and Balanced Seas NTZ's and MPA's are just a sham,

 

Nothing is going to change, all the time you have aggregate dredging and the European fishing fleet that permently scapes the 6-12 limits with whose hugh trawls, NTZ's and MPA's will achieve nothing for anglers or commercials they are disigned to get rid of fishermen for the benefit of government income an appeasement of the greens and to kept the people that thought it all up in a job with expenses and pensions, thats right the minstry of silly thoughts the civil servants, they are not so silly are they.

Edited January 1, 2011 by steve good

[barry luxton]

Quote Wurzel.

 

never had a problem catching mackerel either for bait on a charter boat from Brixham or Plymouth also when spending many hours standing shoulder to shoulder on Painton Pier or Torquay harbour wall with every body catching mackerel after mackerel on light float tackle, some thing I used to do regally until the nineties with no sign of a shortage of mackerel.

 

end quote.

 

I started going to devon before there was a charter fleet (old git) it used to be on commercials who used decca to fish the wrecks for conger and some bloody good ling fishing, please note north east lads, we used to fish a full tide for them, at anchor. Can't remember the name of the first and best charter boat that used brixham, even though it was changed over the years four or five times? There is still good boats down there if anyone's interested.

 

I have had problems catching mackerel. Some times, not all. I have taken me kids out in the bay with the mackerel boats with loads of holiday makers aboard to catch say half a dozen between them. That's annoyed me in the past, when i ask the skipper, why can't he find a bit of clear water to be told, no it's not that, it's the ships anchored off the bay having an influence on them. ( balls) yer right.

 

No fishing at all is allowed in torquay harbour, that was due to one of the spit and polish stringy yachts having a ten ounce lead through a cabin window one day. That made headline news down there. Don't see very many anglers using paignton pier, even in the height of the summer. Yes you do see a few mackerel caught along with the odd mullet. The days of shoulder to shoulder fishing have past. The sewer pipe in front of hopes nose is no more, so the mullet fishing there is not what is was. Wouldn't want to take one of them back.

 

We have struggled to get fresh mackerel off brixham for conger trips before now. Luckily with the help of skippers knowledge we have managed to find fresh herring that stay around the rock pinnacle's off brixham. Would i stop going down there, na, never, trying to keep the do goodies away from banning fishing from the likes of berry head etc. So thats why i'm so passionate about it. So the likes of the mcs etc. can s@d off.

Edited January 1, 2011 by barry luxton

[cleeclive]

Hello Clive

 

I've done a post that I will enter shortly on similar lines, not quite so in depth with the politics.

My thoughts on a couple of points you have made .

 

Quote

"stock decline for many species"

 

I don't believe this to be true, Cod were in decline from an all time high during the 70's, when any body talks of fish stocks in decline cod is the one species they have in mind, and I believe the EU used this and still are as a battle axe against British interests.

 

Quote

" and the use of rock hopper footropes on trawls which allowed no patch of ground to be left un-touched."

 

At the moment I'm reading a book on the memoirs of a retired NE coast fishermen who mentions using rock hopper gear as early as the late 60's, 20 years before your reference to it and it is more of a northern technique for white fish further south and west the hard ground has little attention from trawlers, I once mentioned this to the late John Brennon, the reply " w'll ya can'a dig tha soles out o solid rock" and that's about right with soles being the main target species of the southern trawlers and not a species targeted by many RSA.

I personally don't believe the introduction of the MPA's will have much of a noticeable effect on fish stocks in general, a few resident species perhaps will benefit, I also believe that the introduction of MPA's is more to do with job creation for the management as with recent severe restrictions on the inshore fleet means there will be little else to manage in the near future.

Happy New year Wurzel,

 

Just to respond to your points;

 

On the question of stock decline I can only base that on scientific evidence from the guys in Lowestoft and Aberdeen and I know you have your doubts about that. However I do believe that the time series data that the present shows specific trends. I also believe that if you re-introduced the fleet of the early eighties overnight and allowed them to fish as of that time most would be bankrupt within a year.

 

Rock hoppers may well have been used before my reference point but I worked as a gear technologist for Cosalt in the early 70's and very closely with the Flume tank since its introduction in the mid 70s and made numerous models of trawls for testing there. In the early part of the 70's we predominately sold rubber wheels and steel bobbins for hard ground work. Jens Bojen from Grimsby pioneered pair trawling on patces of stones in the North sea using Danish plastic bobbins that filled with water interspaced with rubber discs, Around 76/77 Pete Mccillop of Cosalt took the first Danish style pair trawls to Peterhead, again fitted with the plastic Bobbins. At the end of the 70s and through the early 80s the rock hoppers took over which was all linked with the widespread introduction of net drums and power blocks that could handle them. (Jens Bojen was something of a legend in Grimsby being one of the towns most successful North Sea Fishermen who went on to have his uwn fish sales company, actually owns the Grimsby tax office, so enjoys getting a cheque from the tax man each month, and topped his career by climbing Everest just after he retired).

 

On the question of MPAs I guess time will tell but as you say it could well be an exercise in being seen to be doing somethig, and of course a bit of empire building for various scientific groups. They have to be the right areas and one thing for sure the scientists are very unlikely to get that right. I guess there are plenty of fishermen who would know the best areas but it would not be in their commercial interest to give that kind of information to the enemy! The reality is the usual game of cat and mouse and nobody wins apart from the politicians.

 

Cheers

 

Clive

[cleeclive]

Well gentlemen I was asking a very open question without trying to direct the answer. That however was probably not the best option so it might help to glen some info if I now respond with my views.

 

A bench mark of the fifties has been suggested by Ken personally I would prefer to start at the end of the WW2 which was before my time I hasten to add. At this time some say the fin fish had, as a result of reduced effort during the conflict, recovered well and there was a plentiful supply of easy to catch, cheep food for our nation.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

References to recovered stocks after WW2 are to the large off shore fleets of the time and no doubt lack of effort played a part but it also coincided with a massive year class of haddock of which was making up the bulk of catches, this has happened on a few occasions since despite heavy fishing pressure.

I think there was still a traditional inshore fleet working during the war although reduced due to younger men off fighting, there are several accounts of fishing boats being attacked or sunk by mines.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

As a very young lad, in the mid to late fifties I recall seeing huge shoals of mackerel from the cliffs of the north Cornish coast. Then in the early sixties we had reports of huge factory ships hovering up these fish at an alarming rate, now that would have been well off shore as we at the time had control of our 200mile limit, at least where that was not impeded with other nations limits.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I remember it well and it was the early seventies and was a yearly event for a few years, unless you are aware of another episode before my time, as I remember the foreign factory ships did not fish but were anchored in Falmouth Bay and the English and mainly Scottish boats catching the fish and off loading the catches to them, I remember reports of large catches of small unwanted fish being caught and dumped polluting the grounds for other fishermen.

It never interfered with my fishing and never had a problem catching mackerel either for bait on a charter boat from Brixham or Plymouth also when spending many hours standing shoulder to shoulder on Painton Pier or Torquay harbour wall with every body catching mackerel after mackerel on light float tackle, some thing I used to do regally until the nineties with no sign of a shortage of mackerel.

The pelagic fleet now has MSC certification for their mackerel fishery with the stock very abundant.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any way the thing is it was not long before along came the CFP and our own commercial fleet where having to venture further a field to meet the demand.

 

We joined the French Spanish and other nations in the Newfoundland waters leading some say to the collapse in Cod stock there though other commentators point the blame else where.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you will find that we were fishing the Grand banks some 300 years before the CFP and over the years there are several reports of the cod fishing there collapsing with merchants and ship owners going bankrupt, the collapse in the sixties was the first to blame over fishing.

_____________________________________________________________________

 

None the less there were then the Icelandic Cod wars followed by the introduction of CFP quotas all of which would suggest there was an impact on fish stocks.

_____________________________________________________________________

Nothing what so ever to do with impact on fish stocks, politics, Iceland wanted the cod for themselves and who could blame them, fish exports are just about their only industry and makes them self-sufficient where as before they were reliant on Denmark.

UK boats had been fishing Icelandic and Norwegian waters longer than they had the Grand Banks , I wonder why sail boats no bigger than what we would know consider inshore boats, from ports as far south as Harwich on the east and Fleetwood on the west coast of England voyage that far if as we are led to believe cod stocks were abundant in local waters.

The CFP was devised to divvy up the fishing rights of the nations of the European Union (EU) with the UK loosing out big time.

_____________________________________________________________________

 

 

 

As an RSA my thoughts are much more local though some of these events will have an effect as will that most unpredictable thing we call the weather along with slight tidal shifts particularly the track of the Gulf Stream.

_____________________________________________________________________

At least you are willing to agree that these things do have an effect.

_____________________________________________________________________

 

 

Inshore commercial fishing methods to have also changed drastically during my life time, with long lines replaced by tangle nets of vast length the introduction of gill nets, which some commentators say can be very selective.

_____________________________________________________________________

Gill nets have been used for thousands of years, the introduction of monofilament was the turning point in making them more efficient and easier to use effectively in a wider range of fisheries.

All nets are selective in the size of fish they catch which is governed by the size of the mesh, not so much selective on the species. A gill net or any other net used correctly and responsibly is no worse than any other method.

_____________________________________________________________________

 

 

Chesters 1 makes a valid point also, in that our ability to capture fish is much better than it once was, so easy to conclude then that fish stocks are indeed under pressure and that the commercial effort is having a detrimental effect.

_____________________________________________________________________

In some cases it is a valid point, it’s known as technical creep. In most cases technical creep allows you to keep up with inflation and inflation is the cause of demise of many fishermen, I’ve just worked out that the cost of my first house was the equivalent of 10 tonnes of cod that same house 30 years later now equates to 80 tonnes.

Years ago it was possible for 3 men in a small boat working a few lines to make a liveable wage as time goes by they can’t, not because they are catching less fish but the earnings don’t go far enough so those that invest in a modern boat that can catch more fish possibly with less crew survive and the normal progression normally means less boats but more efficient, another example would be the old 1950’s herring drifters with ten men on board at to days prices they would not be able to carry enough fish to pay the wage bill but a modern pelagic boat with 5 men is a different story, so instead of hundreds of drifters you have a hand full of modern pelagic boats.

As a detrimental effect on fish stocks I’m not so sure, there are so many variables where stocks fluctuate down just as they fluctuate upwards with fishing effort staying the same. It also depends on what species you are referring to and if you are referring to your local patch or to the stock nationally, for example I have no doubt I effect the RSA bass fishing on the areas I fish regularly but no way do I have any effect on the bass stock nationally , bass being an example of being heavily fished for as a non pressure stock (no quota) inshore as well as large boats pair trawling off shore, they are slow growing so we are led to believe vulnerable to over fishing yet the stock has increased in overall terms by numbers and range, then again cod despite savage cuts in quotas and days allowed at sea to fish for them and scrapping most of the white fish fleet until recently continued to decline and cod are very fast growing and capable of producing huge year classes of brood , So what was detrimental to cod stocks fishermen or conditions? Perhaps in some cases in the past with examples of bad practices a bit of both. These days I honestly believe that the Uk fleet as it is would be hardly capable of over fishing the local duck pond.

____________________________________________________________________

On the other hand nature would in some way suggest that things are not as bad as the conservationist claim, with good catch reports by RSA over the last couple of years. French and Spanish commercial boats are a common sight along the twelve mile line here in the south west again a pointer of good stock conditions, or theirs are very bad

 

While that is indeed very true there are still many species no longer caught in the numbers they once were. Halibut in the English Channel now very few and far between Common Skate around the IOW gone 40lb Cod gone and those mackerel shoals gone. Some will say they have simply gone some place else for one reason or another and that these fish are still out there which brings us back to the question are they? Oh yes they are!!!! Oh no their not!!!

 

tight lines Bob

 

_____________________________________________________________________

 

I’ve had some very good catches fishing six miles off the French coast.

For a large French boat twelve miles from your coast is not that far to travel . Spain has traditionally had a large nomadic fleet due to having a very narrow continental shelf so need to travel closer to the UK to catch the species that inhabit the shallower waters, I think Spain is restricted with only a few boats allowed to fish in certain areas with none as yet allowed in the North Sea.

I don’t know much about halibut or common skate in the English channel, I do know they are caught regularly other places with just as much commercial activity.

Were 40lb cod ever common? There are a splattering of 30 pound fish caught each year, one of 35 reported recently on Anglers Net, if we get anther gadoid explosion like there was during the early sixties, which I think could happen with the recent changes in our weather then 15 or 20 years later 30 or even the odd 40 pound cod would once again become more common.

Have the mackerel shoals gone? I was not aware that they have.

 

So at the end of all that waffle I believe they are still there some where in variable amounts as there is no evidence that they are extinct.

Nice post Wurzel and very valid points.

I guess we are heading to a point here where we need a new religion for this "A way of answering the un-answerable" that is what religion is all about I guess, but if we wait long enough maybe science will answer it for us!

In the meantime we can while away the hours answering it ourselves on a forum,'the wonders of modern technology'!

 

Well gentlemen I was asking a very open question without trying to direct the answer. That however was probably not the best option so it might help to glen some info if I now respond with my views.

 

A bench mark of the fifties has been suggested by Ken personally I would prefer to start at the end of the WW2 which was before my time I hasten to add. At this time some say the fin fish had, as a result of reduced effort during the conflict, recovered well and there was a plentiful supply of easy to catch, cheep food for our nation.

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References to recovered stocks after WW2 are to the large off shore fleets of the time and no doubt lack of effort played a part but it also coincided with a massive year class of haddock of which was making up the bulk of catches, this has happened on a few occasions since despite heavy fishing pressure.

I think there was still a traditional inshore fleet working during the war although reduced due to younger men off fighting, there are several accounts of fishing boats being attacked or sunk by mines.

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As a very young lad, in the mid to late fifties I recall seeing huge shoals of mackerel from the cliffs of the north Cornish coast. Then in the early sixties we had reports of huge factory ships hovering up these fish at an alarming rate, now that would have been well off shore as we at the time had control of our 200mile limit, at least where that was not impeded with other nations limits.

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I remember it well and it was the early seventies and was a yearly event for a few years, unless you are aware of another episode before my time, as I remember the foreign factory ships did not fish but were anchored in Falmouth Bay and the English and mainly Scottish boats catching the fish and off loading the catches to them, I remember reports of large catches of small unwanted fish being caught and dumped polluting the grounds for other fishermen.

It never interfered with my fishing and never had a problem catching mackerel either for bait on a charter boat from Brixham or Plymouth also when spending many hours standing shoulder to shoulder on Painton Pier or Torquay harbour wall with every body catching mackerel after mackerel on light float tackle, some thing I used to do regally until the nineties with no sign of a shortage of mackerel.

The pelagic fleet now has MSC certification for their mackerel fishery with the stock very abundant.

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Any way the thing is it was not long before along came the CFP and our own commercial fleet where having to venture further a field to meet the demand.

 

We joined the French Spanish and other nations in the Newfoundland waters leading some say to the collapse in Cod stock there though other commentators point the blame else where.

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I think you will find that we were fishing the Grand banks some 300 years before the CFP and over the years there are several reports of the cod fishing there collapsing with merchants and ship owners going bankrupt, the collapse in the sixties was the first to blame over fishing.

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None the less there were then the Icelandic Cod wars followed by the introduction of CFP quotas all of which would suggest there was an impact on fish stocks.

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Nothing what so ever to do with impact on fish stocks, politics, Iceland wanted the cod for themselves and who could blame them, fish exports are just about their only industry and makes them self-sufficient where as before they were reliant on Denmark.

UK boats had been fishing Icelandic and Norwegian waters longer than they had the Grand Banks , I wonder why sail boats no bigger than what we would know consider inshore boats, from ports as far south as Harwich on the east and Fleetwood on the west coast of England voyage that far if as we are led to believe cod stocks were abundant in local waters.

The CFP was devised to divvy up the fishing rights of the nations of the European Union (EU) with the UK loosing out big time.

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As an RSA my thoughts are much more local though some of these events will have an effect as will that most unpredictable thing we call the weather along with slight tidal shifts particularly the track of the Gulf Stream.

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At least you are willing to agree that these things do have an effect.

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Inshore commercial fishing methods to have also changed drastically during my life time, with long lines replaced by tangle nets of vast length the introduction of gill nets, which some commentators say can be very selective.

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Gill nets have been used for thousands of years, the introduction of monofilament was the turning point in making them more efficient and easier to use effectively in a wider range of fisheries.

All nets are selective in the size of fish they catch which is governed by the size of the mesh, not so much selective on the species. A gill net or any other net used correctly and responsibly is no worse than any other method.

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Chesters 1 makes a valid point also, in that our ability to capture fish is much better than it once was, so easy to conclude then that fish stocks are indeed under pressure and that the commercial effort is having a detrimental effect.

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In some cases it is a valid point, it’s known as technical creep. In most cases technical creep allows you to keep up with inflation and inflation is the cause of demise of many fishermen, I’ve just worked out that the cost of my first house was the equivalent of 10 tonnes of cod that same house 30 years later now equates to 80 tonnes.

Years ago it was possible for 3 men in a small boat working a few lines to make a liveable wage as time goes by they can’t, not because they are catching less fish but the earnings don’t go far enough so those that invest in a modern boat that can catch more fish possibly with less crew survive and the normal progression normally means less boats but more efficient, another example would be the old 1950’s herring drifters with ten men on board at to days prices they would not be able to carry enough fish to pay the wage bill but a modern pelagic boat with 5 men is a different story, so instead of hundreds of drifters you have a hand full of modern pelagic boats.

As a detrimental effect on fish stocks I’m not so sure, there are so many variables where stocks fluctuate down just as they fluctuate upwards with fishing effort staying the same. It also depends on what species you are referring to and if you are referring to your local patch or to the stock nationally, for example I have no doubt I effect the RSA bass fishing on the areas I fish regularly but no way do I have any effect on the bass stock nationally , bass being an example of being heavily fished for as a non pressure stock (no quota) inshore as well as large boats pair trawling off shore, they are slow growing so we are led to believe vulnerable to over fishing yet the stock has increased in overall terms by numbers and range, then again cod despite savage cuts in quotas and days allowed at sea to fish for them and scrapping most of the white fish fleet until recently continued to decline and cod are very fast growing and capable of producing huge year classes of brood , So what was detrimental to cod stocks fishermen or conditions? Perhaps in some cases in the past with examples of bad practices a bit of both. These days I honestly believe that the Uk fleet as it is would be hardly capable of over fishing the local duck pond.

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On the other hand nature would in some way suggest that things are not as bad as the conservationist claim, with good catch reports by RSA over the last couple of years. French and Spanish commercial boats are a common sight along the twelve mile line here in the south west again a pointer of good stock conditions, or theirs are very bad

 

While that is indeed very true there are still many species no longer caught in the numbers they once were. Halibut in the English Channel now very few and far between Common Skate around the IOW gone 40lb Cod gone and those mackerel shoals gone. Some will say they have simply gone some place else for one reason or another and that these fish are still out there which brings us back to the question are they? Oh yes they are!!!! Oh no their not!!!

 

tight lines Bob

 

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I’ve had some very good catches fishing six miles off the French coast.

For a large French boat twelve miles from your coast is not that far to travel . Spain has traditionally had a large nomadic fleet due to having a very narrow continental shelf so need to travel closer to the UK to catch the species that inhabit the shallower waters, I think Spain is restricted with only a few boats allowed to fish in certain areas with none as yet allowed in the North Sea.

I don’t know much about halibut or common skate in the English channel, I do know they are caught regularly other places with just as much commercial activity.

Were 40lb cod ever common? There are a splattering of 30 pound fish caught each year, one of 35 reported recently on Anglers Net, if we get anther gadoid explosion like there was during the early sixties, which I think could happen with the recent changes in our weather then 15 or 20 years later 30 or even the odd 40 pound cod would once again become more common.

Have the mackerel shoals gone? I was not aware that they have.

 

So at the end of all that waffle I believe they are still there some where in variable amounts as there is no evidence that they are extinct.

Nice post Wurzel and very valid points.

I guess we are heading to a point here where we need a new religion for this "A way of answering the un-answerable" that is what religion is all about I guess, but if we wait long enough maybe science will answer it for us!

In the meantime we can while away the hours answering it ourselves on a forum,'the wonders of modern technology'!

[wurzel]

Happy New year Wurzel,

 

Just to respond to your points;

 

On the question of stock decline I can only base that on scientific evidence from the guys in Lowestoft and Aberdeen and I know you have your doubts about that. However I do believe that the time series data that the present shows specific trends. I also believe that if you re-introduced the fleet of the early eighties overnight and allowed them to fish as of that time most would be bankrupt within a year.

 

Rock hoppers may well have been used before my reference point but Hello Clive

Thanks for an informative reply and a happy new year to you also.

 

When I mentioned bad practices Jens Bojen and other top boats of the time from the ports in the Grimsby area were top most in my mind, there was a time during the later 80's coinciding with a very large year class of O group of codlings, these trawlers were taking huge hauls of very small codling with only a small percent sizeable the rest discarded, to us long liners it seemed a terrible waste full way to earn a living, even the smaller local trawlers here abouts were landing amounts of just sizeable codling so perhaps with out admitting it they were doing the same, I'm sure this sort of bulk wasteful fishing had to have an effect on the stock, at least locally if not nationally. These days with compulsory larger meshes, square mesh escape panels , closing areas of high abundant juvenile fish, and of cause lack of boats it would not be repeated.

 

Quote

" I also believe that if you re-introduced the fleet of the early eighties overnight and allowed them to fish as of that time most would be bankrupt within a year."

 

I'm not so sure, there are reports of large amounts of cod on the NE coast, if left to their own devises during the last 30 years and as I believe fish regulate fishermen it's not possible the other way round, some would have gone bankrupt ,inflation and the ability not to keep up with the technical creep would have played it's part, but others would have diversified into other fisheries, look at the Bridlington shell fish fleet, cod stocks decreased but at the same time dover sole, prawns , pollack, coalfish , bass and of late plaice on the Dogger bank have increased considerably, I remember John Brennon investing in a boat and gear to go sole fishing then just as he got it sussed and was earning good money landing good shots of sole and other high value flat fish the ministry stopped him by issuing a tiny quota due to lack of a previous sole track record, this forced him back into a declining cod fishery ending up having no option but to take decommission. I have no doubt he would have continued to make a living fishing for flat fish and others would have followed suit.

 

 

I worked as a gear technologist for Cosalt in the early 70's and very closely with the Flume tank since its introduction in the mid 70s and made numerous models of trawls for testing there. In the early part of the 70's we predominately sold rubber wheels and steel bobbins for hard ground work. Jens Bojen from Grimsby pioneered pair trawling on patces of stones in the North sea using Danish plastic bobbins that filled with water interspaced with rubber discs, Around 76/77 Pete Mccillop of Cosalt took the first Danish style pair trawls to Peterhead, again fitted with the plastic Bobbins. At the end of the 70s and through the early 80s the rock hoppers took over which was all linked with the widespread introduction of net drums and power blocks that could handle them. (Jens Bojen was something of a legend in Grimsby being one of the towns most successful North Sea Fishermen who went on to have his uwn fish sales company, actually owns the Grimsby tax office, so enjoys getting a cheque from the tax man each month, and topped his career by climbing Everest just after he retired).

 

On the question of MPAs I guess time will tell but as you say it could well be an exercise in being seen to be doing somethig, and of course a bit of empire building for various scientific groups. They have to be the right areas and one thing for sure the scientists are very unlikely to get that right. I guess there are plenty of fishermen who would know the best areas but it would not be in their commercial interest to give that kind of information to the enemy! The reality is the usual game of cat and mouse and nobody wins apart from the politicians.

 

Cheers

 

Clive

 

Hello Clive

Thanks for an informitive reply and a happy new year to you also.

 

When I mentioned bad practices Jens Bojen and other top boats of the time from the ports in the Grimsby area were top most in my mind, there was a time during the later 80's coinciding with a very large year class of O group of codlings, these trawlers were taking huge hauls of very small codling with only a small percent sizeable the rest dicarded, to us long liners it seemed a terrible waste full way to earn a living, even the smaller local trawlers here abouts were landing amounts of just sizeable codling so perhaps with out addmiting it they were doing the same, I'm sure this sort of bulk wastefull fishing had to have an effect on the stock, at least localy if not naitinaly. These days with complusery larger meshes, square mesh escape pannels , closing areas of high aboundent juvinile fish, and of cause lack of boats it would not be repeated.

 

Quote

" I also believe that if you re-introduced the fleet of the early eighties overnight and allowed them to fish as of that time most would be bankrupt within a year."

 

I'm not so sure, there are reports of large amounts of cod on the NE coast, if left to thier own devises during the last 30 years and as I believe fish regulate fishermen it's not possible the other way round, some would have gone bankrupt,inflation and the ability not to keep up with the technecal creep would have played it's part, but others would have diversyfied into other fisheries, look at the Bridlinton shell fish fleet, cod stocks decreased but at the same time dover sole, prawns , pollack, coalfish , bass and of late plaice on the Dogger bank have increased considerably, I remember John Brennon investing in a boat and gear to go sole fishing then just as he got it sussed and was earning good money landing good shots of sole and other high value flat fish the minerstry stopped him by issueing a tiny quota due to lack of a previos sole track reckord, this forced him back into a declining cod fishery ending up haveing no option but to take decomission. I have nodoubt he would have cotinuned to make a living fishing for flat fish and others would have followed suit.

[cleeclive]

Quote Wurzel.

 

never had a problem catching mackerel either for bait on a charter boat from Brixham or Plymouth also when spending many hours standing shoulder to shoulder on Painton Pier or Torquay harbour wall with every body catching mackerel after mackerel on light float tackle, some thing I used to do regally until the nineties with no sign of a shortage of mackerel.

 

end quote.

 

I started going to devon before there was a charter fleet (old git) it used to be on commercials who used decca to fish the wrecks for conger and some bloody good ling fishing, please note north east lads, we used to fish a full tide for them, at anchor. Can't remember the name of the first and best charter boat that used brixham, even though it was changed over the years four or five times? There is still good boats down there if anyone's interested.

 

I have had problems catching mackerel. Some times, not all. I have taken me kids out in the bay with the mackerel boats with loads of holiday makers aboard to catch say half a dozen between them. That's annoyed me in the past, when i ask the skipper, why can't he find a bit of clear water to be told, no it's not that, it's the ships anchored off the bay having an influence on them. ( balls) yer right.

 

No fishing at all is allowed in torquay harbour, that was due to one of the spit and polish stringy yachts having a ten ounce lead through a cabin window one day. That made headline news down there. Don't see very many anglers using paignton pier, even in the height of the summer. Yes you do see a few mackerel caught along with the odd mullet. The days of shoulder to shoulder fishing have past. The sewer pipe in front of hopes nose is no more, so the mullet fishing there is not what is was. Wouldn't want to take one of them back.

 

We have struggled to get fresh mackerel off brixham for conger trips before now. Luckily with the help of skippers knowledge we have managed to find fresh herring that stay around the rock pinnacle's off brixham. Would i stop going down there, na, never, trying to keep the do goodies away from banning fishing from the likes of berry head etc. So thats why i'm so passionate about it. So the likes of the mcs etc. can s@d off.

 

 

If my memory serves me well I think that you our talking about 'Our Unity' run by Ernie Passmore and John Trust. They started in the mid 60's and used to take huge hauls of conger and ling off the wrecks, the pioneers of wreck fishing. I did several trips with them as a teenager.