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Chris. Peter does to some extent make a valid point when he brings social class in to the equation.

 

Whilst those in the know may well be aware that hunting with dogs in it's widest sense crosses all social class divides the general public remain blissfilly unaware of this.

 

The public image of hunting with dogs is that of the classical image of Toffs on horseback dressed in the uniform of pinks.

 

Sadly over the years many of the hunters have gone out of their way to behave in an arrogant high handed fashion appearing to sneer down at the world from their lordly position mounted on horseback.

 

I am aware that some efforts have been made to change this set of images but as yet the general perception of many people hasn't altered.

 

Because of the above it is far easier for the antis to press their case as no one particularly likes or admires the 'Gentry'. The predominant culture in this country is one of envy and petty jelousy and there are vast numbers of people who like to make life less pleasant for others.

 

To be seen to be different by virtue of being wealthy or successful is to arouse hatred in the hearts of millions.

 

Thus it is easy for the anti's to stir up class hatred as part of their campaign.

Do not think for one moment that the present government would have considered this legislation if hunting had been a black,gay, or urban issue. The problem for the hunters is that they are percieved as being part of the only minority group that it is still OK to hate! ie white upper and middle class people!

 

In saying all of the above I have no strong views on the rights or wrongs of hunting per se

 

However I trust that we are all capable of learning the issues about image and perception as I predict that in future we will need to understand these dynamics when we find ourselves in the firing line.

 

The antis have the apparently easier job of attacking without offering any form of replacement it is always easier to attack that defend which is why I have long advocated attacking the antis rather than taking a defesive position as in the long run it is only by destroying the credibility of the antis that we will defeat them.

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical

minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which

holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd

by the clean end"

Cheers

Alan

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Lee - I can assure you that I'm not in need of redemption!

I have known Martin Salter for some time and we agreed (prior to the livebait problem)that we should have an informal get together and discuss angling in general, where it is today and where it might go in the future. No fixed agenda, you see?

That said, the NW livebaiting issue will be covered and the SAA's stand point clearly put.

I did advise senior officers of the SAA but didn't put it out to the angling public because in my experience all too often these meetings need a lot of work behind the scenes before anything meaningful comes to fruition.

It is far better for all concerned to have something concrete to publicise after the event to show genuine progress.

Sending out a press release every time a member of the SAA is going to meet someone 'important' can devalue the press release system.

Fred Guttfield is in a different ball game as a journalist. He was looking for an article, that's his job.

Be assured, if anything relevant comes out of the meeting the SAA will be advised and if it warants a press release I will write it

DCB

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Alan Roe:

Sadly over the years many of the hunters have gone out of their way to behave in an arrogant high handed fashion appearing to sneer down at the world from their lordly position mounted on horseback.

This is the perceived problem, but put these same antis in the similar position behind the driving wheel of a high 4 x 4 and they behave in exactly the same way that they hate in horse riders and are hated just as much by the rest of motorists. How often have you heard? "Everybody gets out of my way when I'm in my Land Rover".

 

It's Animal Farm all over again!!

 

Jim Roper

 

http://www.march-info.org

http://www.weymouth.gov.uk/harbourcam.htm

http://www.weymouth.gov.uk/beachcam.htm

http://www.searchlineuk.com/FishList.htm

http://www.thisisdorset.net

http://www.d-das.com/

Lower South Buckland Farm Campsite DT3 4BQ
http://www.campingandcaravanningclub.co.uk/campsites/uk/dorset/weymouth/southbucklandfarm
Pisces mortui solum cum flumine natant

You get more bites on Anglers Net

 

http://www.fishingtails.co.uk

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To Paul-H:

I will concede that the attacks on Martin within this post weren't particularly personal, although Scott's post was somewhat loaded. Trying to respond between getting out of bed and going to work, I was guilty of being influenced by the many vicious attacks that have taken place previously, whenever party politics have been mentioned in connection with angling. (There's another long sentence for Chris Goddard to get his teeth into). I read Scott's post and thought "here we go again".

 

When it comes to hunting with hounds, my focus has been directed mainly on the "sport" practised by a large groups of toffs in fancy dress, using a large pack of hounds to chase a single fox to exhaustion before ripping it to shreds while it is still alive. The practice of wiping the unfortunate creature's blood all over the faces of their children would be called child abuse if carried out in an inner city estate, but hey, that's country ways for you.

 

Just to show that I do sympathise with farmers, I have enormous sympathy with farmers whose land is invaded by groups of vicious thugs with lurchers, who then set them on previously captured hares just to gamble on the results. Many farmers have been threatened and/or attacked when attempting to confront these gangs. It is such a big problem in these parts that the police are even using helicopters to track these people down.

 

What else was there? Ah yes, using a landing net on one ounce fish. Has everyone gone mad? They'll be using a landing net on their lobworms next. Do Middy make a six inch unhooking mat? I would have thought that far less stress and damage would be caused by bringing a fish straight to hand, assuming that wet hands were used of course.

 

I can't even remember what the hell I was arguing with Lee about now, but I'm sure I won :)

 

Oh, nearly forgot, does anyone know what the qualifications are for joining the Country Landowners' Association? I'm thinking of joining.

 

[ 21. August 2002, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: Peter Sharpe ]

English as tuppence, changing yet changeless as canal water, nestling in green nowhere, armoured and effete, bold flag-bearer, lotus-fed Miss Havishambling, opsimath and eremite, feudal, still reactionary, Rawlinson End.

 

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Dear David,

 

Exactly what, constitutes being a senior SAA officer? Seeing as I am the lowly rivers coordinator of the SAA I shall take that as read that my position doesn't warrant a "senior" label? Or any label.

 

I find that most regrettable. For two reasons;

 

1, I would have liked the opportunity to firstly actually "KNOW" this meeting was taking place because whether you think so or not, I feel that at least, even in the interests of basic courtesy, I should have been told.

 

Furthermore, I would have liked the chance via yourself, to pose one or two questions I have for Mr Salter in my capacity as the SAA rivers coordinator. Seeing as I have paid my money to become a member of the SAA, AND willingly offered the SAA my unpaid, unclaimed expensed services to help out, I expected better treatment.

 

2, Seeing as others and myself represent the RSSG within its membership of the SAA, I would have hoped that one or two questions that the RSSG membership would like asking at this meeting would be asked by you on their behalf. How could we do this if we are not told about this meeting? Lets face it, you would not have otherwise announced it unless you had been miffed at certain comments on here.

 

This "IS" why we joined the SAA you know. Not to hear some report made "AFTER" an important meeting. But to know of it before hand so as to be able to get "OUR" questions asked as well!

 

The SAA by articles in its own constitution claim to represent the interests of its members. How the hell is all this supposed to work if you, and those "senior" officers you speak of dont tell anyone anything? May I remind you that the SAA paying membership is "NOT" the angling public. We are, all of us, paying members of the SAA.

 

Are you indeed in need of redemption David? I'll leave that for the great many who come to this forum to decide.

 

PR? I repeat. What PR?

 

Alan,

 

Where exactly have you got so much knowledge or experience of Englands gentry? How many of these titled people do you know exactly? More importantly, where do you get the information of how the gentry are percieved within the communities where they live and work?

 

Remember the SAA code of conduct Alan? The head honcho from the "gentry" circles put his name to that one. Or have you forgot that everyone was tickled to bits when HRH supported the code? Cant remember anyone saying the "Toffs" on board.

 

Your quote;

 

" The public image of hunting with dogs is that of the classical image of Toffs on horseback dressed in the uniform of pinks."

 

RHUBARB.

 

The public image, or the majority of the public, working class public that is, associate hunting with dogs akin to their local characters who go out bagging rabbits with lurchers, terriers etc. Most of which in these communities hardly think about "Red Coated" foxhunters unless they get a christmas card with a hunt scene on it.

 

Your quote;

 

"Sadly over the years many of the hunters have gone out of their way to behave in an arrogant high handed fashion appearing to sneer down at the world from their lordly position mounted on horseback."

 

HOGWASH.

 

How many individuals do you know personally that go foxhunting Alan? Because if you dont know any of these people personally, or have never witnessed how "MANY" of the hunters behave, how the hell can you make such a comment? Read about it in the Sun did you? Or do you base your accusations on first hand experience?

 

Your Quote;

 

"Because of the above it is far easier for the antis to press their case as no one particularly likes or admires the 'Gentry'".

 

What utter rubbish Alan.

 

Why dont you get to know people in communities that have the "Gentry" living in their midst? Then you would know what you are talking about.

 

The real truth is, these "Gentry" types are "MOSTLY" the ones who help and organise most of the charity events going off locally. I have lost count of the amout of buildings owned by the gentry that I know personally that are GIVEN to others for all sorts of uses absolutely free of charge. I dont mean for the night, or week, I mean year upon year. Week in week out.

 

Our local village school for example. The stone building is actually owned by the Welby family who are Earls. The building, its total upkeep, is given to the local education authority absolutely free. And has been so since the early Victorian times. Now thats a long time to be so generous dont you think? There are countless other examples I could quote of a similar nature. Examples where the gentry are involved in amazing charitable positions. Not only within their own rural communities but elswhere in less so fortunate society far away from the green fields of rural England.

 

The Duke of Rutland for example, as did his father before him, works tirelessly for our nations ex servicemen. Men who have faught for our country and have fallen on hard times or for their widows when their husbands pass on either of old age or in battle.

 

If you really want to know what people think of the gentry, people that actually know or work with the same, go into THEIR comminities Alan. But go prepared to have your eyes opened. or you could promote the utter rubbish that others put out that would not know a member of the "gentry" if one fell out of the sky.

 

Nor would you by all accounts Alan.

 

Pete, (sharpe)

 

Apologies from myself Pete. After talking to many PSG members who know you well, and remembering that someone told me you were a PSG member. I assumed you were. Sorry.

 

Of course I will respect your request so as not to label you "respected". Sorry once again.

 

Regards,

 

Lee.

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Presumably, owning land in the country and being prepared to associate with other people who own land in the country. (I don't own a house, a car, or even a decent haircut at the moment so I'm out I think).

 

As DCB says, fishing is not just a country pursuit: Savay, for instance, is in London. (Not that that changes anything, though :) )

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Apology accepted Lee.

English as tuppence, changing yet changeless as canal water, nestling in green nowhere, armoured and effete, bold flag-bearer, lotus-fed Miss Havishambling, opsimath and eremite, feudal, still reactionary, Rawlinson End.

 

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A very pertinent question has been asked, and not answered. Why did it take the threat to fox hunting to kick start the CA into being? There are rural issues of far greater importance than fox hunting that could have been the catalyst for its formation.

 

Just for the record, I am not anti rich folk, posh folk, poor folk, agricultral folk, town folk or whatever. I am simply opposed to those who want to use 'angling' for their own selfish ends.

 

[ 21. August 2002, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: Peter Waller ]

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Dear Lee I take great offence to your remarks. I have indeed hunted myself in the dim and distant past (the 1970s) riding as a guest at the Gothland hunt.

So yes I do have first hand experience of the process and the people. Kindly use a little consideration when attempting to rubbish the considered thoughts of others especially when you are blissfully ignorant about them or their lives.

 

Further I have had experience of the antics of some of the hunters at other hunts notably in the south west.

 

The reality is that whether you like it or not... the public perception of hunting with dogs is the classical one I laid out as before, you have to remember that the vast majortiy of the population is urban and not rural....This may have escaped your notice! Few local 'Characters'in Blackpool hunt with lurchers....Nowadays this type of 'character' is robbing CD systems out of your car or flogging drugs.

 

That is why the anti's attack fox hunting in particular as it is an easy high profile target for reasons of the ease with which they can show to the townies some of the more distastful aspects of the hunt as well as utilise the social class element.

 

As I said before in a point that you so obviously missed in you ignorance and bigotry when you went for the attack on me. This administration would not have even considered the introduction of legislation had hunting been a black, gay or urban issue

 

Now I suggest fella that you wake up and smell the coffee and accept that whatever good the gentry do for their local communities such work is commonly ignored by the vast majority of the urban population as they have no contact with it.

 

Perceptions of social class still divide this country and will continue to hold it back for many generations to come as there are too many vested interests ready to maintain tension and hatred for it to be dropped.

 

To overlook the value of perception over truth is to bury your head in the sand when it comes to these sorts of interests.

 

As somebody who has voluntarily placed themselves in the vanguard of angling politcs with the defence of our pastime as a central part of it's core, your lack of strategic vision quite frankly alarms me.

 

To attempt to attack me without being in possession of any knowledge about me I would regard as showing worrying signs of arrant stupidity at best and I have to wonder at your fitness to continue to take a leading role within anglings body politic where a wider 'real world' view is needed

 

[ 22. August 2002, 02:50 AM: Message edited by: Alan Roe ]

"Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical

minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which

holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd

by the clean end"

Cheers

Alan

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