Golden/Blue Orfe/Ide

[Jamie Thornton]

I'm really confused about this particular species. On British Record Lists the Golden Orfe is the only type of this species with a record weight. Now if a blue Orfe for example was caught and was larger in weight than the Golden breed, will it be changed to Blue Orfe or would it be on the list like the Golden? Would this happen with the Ide aswell? Why is it that Golden is the only breed on these list and not the original Ide? This is probly been covered or I'm just thick at this but some help would be grateful. Thanks!

[Chris Plumb]

Orfe and Ide are the same species..

 

Leuciscus idus

 

Chris

[Jamie Thornton]

I know that - But what if the Golden Orfe Weight was broken by A blue Orfe or an Ide? - Will they still list the weight under Golden Orfe??

[davidP]

Jamie Thornton:

I know that - But what if the Golden Orfe Weight was broken by A blue Orfe or an Ide? - Will they still list the weight under Golden Orfe??

Presumably not. They currently quote it's coloquial name because that's what most anglers are likely to catch being as the golden orfe is the most common in the country. I suppose they shoud really change the name to Ide or Orfe. The record is for Leuciscus Idus which covers all three.

[Gray-Catchpole]

really, now thats confused me, on a thread a while back i asked if Ide where a breed on there own and the general answer was yes, i didnt reallise the orfe was one and the same.

[peter mccue]

What an interesting question jamie when they are basically all the same fish!

 

As they are simply domesticated variants of the Ide, I suppose the record should be just under the heading of Ide. After all we don't differentiate with the different varieties of Carp do we, the record is simply the carp record.

[DaRoachster]

Sorry Peter I disagree I think that Orfe and Ide should all be seperate as is Lee jacksons 61lb 7oz capture of Two Tonne at Conningbrook and Liam Moores disputed Crucian Record Of 5lb 1oz , This record is in dispute because of breeding if it happens to be a hybrid he looses but if not his name is in the record books , So with this point in mind I think it should be the same for the Orfe and Ide that way it also makes it more interesting for us anglers as it gives us more records to aim for .

[davidP]

DaRoachster:

Sorry Peter I disagree I think that Orfe and Ide should all be seperate as is Lee jacksons 61lb 7oz capture of Two Tonne at Conningbrook and Liam Moores disputed Crucian Record Of 5lb 1oz , This record is in dispute because of breeding if it happens to be a hybrid he looses but if not his name is in the record books , So with this point in mind I think it should be the same for the Orfe and Ide that way it also makes it more interesting for us anglers as it gives us more records to aim for .

Sorry Da, but the blue and golden orfe are simply ornamental versions of the ide. They share the same classification as Leuciscus idus therefore they cannot be distinguished between. Yes, they may look different, but so do mirror, common & leather. And what if you got a particularly dull golden orfe or a particularly golden coloured ide?

 

The carp, the brown goldfish and the crucian carp are biologically different species hence the separate records. The difficulty only comes because they're so difficult to tell apart in certain circumstances. Practically the only way to be sure is to kill the fish and get it biologically examined.

 

I'd also have to say however that as they're not including 'imported' fish on the list any more, then accepting records for any of the ide derivatives, particularly blue orfe which is a comparatively recent introduction, is potentially breaking their own rules.

[david platt]

Hi All,

as Davidp has said, Ide & Golden Orfe are the same fish, its just that the golden orfe is a cultivated form of the Ide

david

[Jamie Thornton]

Wow! Thanks for the replys you guys! I guess after understanding the reason behind only having Golden Orfe covering all three 'colourings' I can see why - because of the fact they are most popular in with that name and across the UK. In my opinion, just like the Carp, I think it should be Ide and nothing else. It it the original form and other forms would be covered from that just like the Tench for example. The golden tench isnt on the list so How comes an ornamental version has to be the primary name for the species?