Fish feel pain !!!!!!!!

[Peter Waller]

It would be interesting to know exactly why this good lady decided on this line of research.

 

It would be good to know if she belongs to, is associated with, or supports such as the CAA, Pisces or PETA.

 

It would seem that this report has been published with one, and only one intention, that of alienating anglers.

 

Ultimately it could encourage public disorder.

[easternangler]

Peter, she actually said on her radio suffolk interview that she was not anti angling (I taped it and have typed a transcript). I got the impression that it was more to do with the farming of fish and the use of chemicals etc used in the process which is why she referred to the government needing to consider the introduction of legislation. I am fairly sure it was only the media who jumped on it and took it upon themselves to attack angling with it, of course I might be wrong but that was the impression I got.

[Peter Waller]

Interesting comment Eastern. I missed part of her interview, and that was obviously that part of it. I did hear her say that fish do not feel pain as humans do, which, in spirit goes with your perception of her comments.

 

It then begs the question, why did the BBC choose to use her report in such a manner?

 

There is a link on another thread that goes straight to the BBC's Serious Complaints Department. I have used the link to make comment to the effect that the BBC's presentation of the report is clearly biased and grossly unfair to anglers.

 

I have also suggested that the BBC dedicates a similar day to reporting on the scientifically proven fact that fish do not feel pain! I somehow doubt that they will .

 

Could you post the transcript of the interview on AN please?

[Wag]

This Sneddon research could be highly valuable.

Injecting trout with acetic acid (vinegar), saline solution (salt)- all she needs to do now is work out how to get a bit of black pepper and some butter in there and the buggers will be oven ready straight out of the water!

 

How can any serious scientist be surprised that injecting fish in the lips with bee venom and vinegar causes a change in behaviour - No Sh*t Sherlock!!!

 

If Dr Sneddon had asked a group of experienced anglers what they thought would happen if she injected bee venom and vinegar into the lips of trout, I suspect she could have saved herself a whole load of time and money by writing down their answers. No one can be surprised that their behaviour changed.

 

They also showed stress behaviour when areas of skin were heated to 40C - their natural environment is mountain streams and rivers and the Atlantic ocean, how often does that get up to 40C, or even 20C.

 

Assuming the trout were reared in tanks, how natural was their behaviour anyway - they are river fish, and tank reared trout behave differently to wild fish.

 

The control group were injected with saline solution and "handled". Their behaviour didn't change - which would lead me to believe that the sharp needle and handling wasn't a problem for them - Now what does that process remind me of - thats it - ANGLING.

Dr Sneddon's own report gives the evidence to support our side of the argument, i.e. following the SAA guidelines for the handling of fish causes them no stress. Providing we don't all rush out and buy a box of Bee venom/vinegar tipped hooks the fish are OK.

 

What would the antis suggest happens to all the stocked fish which will die from starvation due to lack of angler's bait going into the water?

 

I consider myself an environmentalist. I grew up in the country, I've always been a birdwatcher, I love studying wildflowers and wildlife in general. A day spent by the lake or river, even if I don't catch anything, is never a day wasted.

But I'm not unrealistic, nature is often cruel, and the countryside is a tough place for animals of any kind to survive, that's what keeps species strong. If we constantly project unreal human interpretations of feelings onto animals (and even plants in some cases - are you out there Charlie?) we lose the plot.

 

As anglers we should be pushing our strong environmental case forward at every opportunity. It's a record we should be proud of. Many rivers, streams, lakes and ponds would be completely unviable if it wasn't for us, and yet we feel defensive. It's about time we woke up and started promoting our sport for what it really is and really achieves.

 

 

Rant over.

[Leon Roskilly]

easternangler:

Peter, she actually said on her radio suffolk interview that she was not anti angling (I taped it and have typed a transcript).

I caught her on Radio4 as I was getting ready for work, she agreed with the Trout angler that there was no problem when a fish was quickly landed, kiled and taken home to be eaten, but that she did have a problem when they were 'thrown back' to be caught repeatedly, and kept in keepnets.

 

There's a difference between research carried out to discover 'what happens when....' and research carried out with an agenda in mind, and a wish to prove something - bad science results when the experimenter already knows the answer they want!

 

Tight Lines - leon

[SandTiger]

Peter Waller:

It would be interesting to know exactly why this good lady decided on this line of research.

 

It would be good to know if she belongs to, is associated with, or supports such as the CAA, Pisces or PETA.

 

It would seem that this report has been published with one, and only one intention, that of alienating anglers.

 

Ultimately it could encourage public disorder.

http://sphere.bioc.liv.ac.uk:8080/bio/rese...e/lynne_sneddon

[SandTiger]

Wonder if she had to indulge in a spot of crab baiting also, see: Sneddon L.U., Huntingford F.A. & Taylor A.C. (1997) Weapon size versus body size as a predictor of winning fights between shore crabs, Carcinus maenas (L.). Behav. Ecol. Sociobiol., 41, 237 - 242.

[Brian Crawford]

Well said Wag.

 

My views completely.

 

Brian Crawford

[easternangler]

This was the whole interview Peter,

 

Suffolk County A.A.A. Radio Suffolk Interview – 30th April 2003

 

Part One

Interviewer – It may sound odd, but according to research published today, fish feel pain. Writing in the Journal of the Royal Society, researchers claim they have the first conclusive evidence to prove this. Dr Lynn Sneddon from Liverpool University helped to conduct the research and joins us now, what did you find?

L.S. – Well we found that fish have the same nerves that humans and mammals have to detect potentially painful stimuli and that there was serious behavioural impairment for the fish when subjected to potentially painful stimuli and that the fish performed strange behaviours. They rocked from side to side, they rubbed their snouts into the gravel, they didn’t feed during this prolonged period of stimulation which was approximately three hours.

Interviewer – Do they actually suffer though, the fishing angling community would say, and have said before, there brains aren’t sufficiently developed enough to experience pain in the way that other animals or that we do.

L.S. – Well, that’s true, I would say that fish pain is nothing like human pain but then I’d say mammalian pain is nothing like human pain, pain in birth is nothing like human pain. We can’t get inside the head of a fish to know exactly what it’s feeling but since they have the same nerves and also show signs of suffering and discomfort during this kind of stimulation then why doubt that they do feel pain. It’s just probably nothing like our experience of pain

Interviewer – So do you think this is going to fuel the debate about whether angling is cruel and should be banned?

L.S. – I think it will be relevant to that, I, not anti angling myself because we eat fish so there is a benefit to humans but I think it will provide quite strong evidence and I hope that what will happen is that the government will take it on board and improve the regulations with respect to treatment of fish.

Interviewer – We’ll see what our callers and the anglers of Suffolk think, Lynn thank you Dr Lynn Sneddon. Later in our programme we’ll be talking to a local angler to find out his views on this latest research that proves according to Dr Lynn Sneddon there that fish actually do feel pain, it’ll be one of our main talking points on the show today and I’d love to talk to you if you are an angler. 01473212121. Do fish feel pain, is it time that angling should be looked at as being a cruel sport or would you go along with what other anglers have told me in the past that the fishes brain just ain’t developed enough to really understand what’s going on and it might notice that something’s array but it really just carries on doing what it normally does.

 

 

Part two

 

Interviewer - Barry Reid is the Suffolk representative of the Amalgamated Angling Association, a keen angler himself, Barry good morning to you.

B.R. - Good morning.

Interviewer - What are your thoughts on this latest research?

B.R. - Well research is always of value isn’t it but it’s a bit like expert witnesses there’s always another example. This one seems to have come hard on the heels of a major report in February this year from a Professor James Rose of the University of Wyoming, a man I might add who is widely regarded as the worlds leading experts on fish, and he’s confirmed that, after many many years of research, that fish do not feel pain. So we have an immediate conflict between the experts.

Interviewer - You have been looking over your shoulder the angling community for some time. There are people who have got you in their sites.

B.R. - That’s quite true yes but anglers by their very nature are very environmentally aware. Lets not forget how well anglers look after the environment and continually monitor the conditions of lakes, rivers and all the rest of it and indeed go to the extent of taking private prosecutions against those that do cause environmental damage. But yes certainly we have an eye on the anti angling brigade.

Interviewer - As far as this new research is concerned surely though if that is correct then something needs to be done about angling doesn’t it? If you’re putting a hook in a fishes mouth, dragging it out of the water, keeping it on the bank while you take a photograph, keeping it in a keep net for a long time, it ain’t having a nice time is it?

B.R. - If you put it the way you put it you would think not wouldn’t you but anglers have taken great strides to ensure that fish are looked after very well. It’s not in their interest to damage fish in any shape or form. As regards dragging them out of the water, if you actually pull against something and cause it pain you would expect it to stop pulling, fish don’t do that. It’s much the same as a farmer leading a Bull, he puts a ring through the nose to lead a very large Bull, the Bull follows because he doesn’t want to be in pain.

Interviewer - Yes but you love it when a fish fights don’t you. When a fish fights, you see John Wilson on the telly he’s struggling going way hey look at this, look at this having a good old fight and the poor things trying to get off.

B.R. - Yes, part of the sport is playing the fish to the bank but what I’m actually saying is that if that fish was in pain would it be pulling in that way. Surely it would go with the line of resistance not against it.

Interviewer - I know that many anglers do try and look after the fish as you say, when it’s caught, when it’s landed, when it’s put back you still though do have accidents you see dead fish floating on rivers, on lakes, some of the immature fish for instance are caught and the hook does them no good whatsoever if they swallow it too far down.

B.R. - There are some unfortunate incidents in any sport as there are in life in general. One of the main stays of the National federation of Anglers for instance is to educate anglers and angling has really got that side of things together now with almost professional coaches so that youngsters can be taken on board and taught how to treat fish properly, how to handle them, how to look after them in general so whatever incidences of that nature there are are obviously very unfortunate but they are an absolute minimum that can be achieved.

Interviewer - Well we are going to be talking about it this morning Barry, thanks for joining us on the programme, Barry Reid, so what do you think, will this put you off fishing, do you think fishing is barbaric you can call me now…………...

[Peter Waller]

Thanks Barry. A lot of effort on your behalf! Anyway, I'm sure that I am not alone in appreciating what you have done.

 

It seems clear to me, as I see it, that Radio Suffolk was intent on creating mischief between anglers and non anglers.