Dead bait presentation.

[Norfolkdipper]

How has this comment slipped through? Surely this needs some sort of disclaimer?

 

Maybe it is down here in the south, according to the angling press & I am sorry if this statement confused you.

Mark

[Norfolkdipper]

You've seen my point Mark! When you start looking at different rigs/presentations/baits even types of venue etc etc it can easily become a far more deeper question!

 

Budgie

I did see the chance of this expanding into a long thread. Yes there are so many variables it could be very imformative, so as you say, take it all in & work it out for ourselves. As regards a definative answer, well that I fear will never come, as everyone has their own opinion.

Mark

[Dales]

I did see the chance of this expanding into a long thread.

 

In the spirit of Mark's posting and to widen the hooking debate a little, does anyone or has any one tried tagging baits? I know single hooks is a bit of a controversial subject and generaly I have been a little frosty to the idea but I am warming slightly to there use in certain situations although I always think trebles will be my first choice.

 

But using a kimble to attach the bait is a rather interesting way of presenting a bait but still think a standard braid hair or bait on hook would be a better option if going down the single route.

 

Link to some single hook zealots incase you are not familar with tagging.

 

http://www.pikewatch.proboards.com/index.c...y&thread=25

Edited November 8, 2011 by Dales

[Phone]

All,

 

Disclaimer, I've never tried this, only seen it once and it was by a couple bass fisherman using dead minnows.

 

Let me see if I can describe it. Begin with a spring from a ball point pen. That's how I'm describing it anyway. One end is opened up to form a sideways "U". The other end is attached to the hook eye (don't remember the exact length, mayb Newt has used this rig). Spring is threaded into the front minnow (in the mouth I believe(?)) and the "U" is secured from the inside out. Not sure how it is even fished. Jigging or trolling I'd say. Anyway, it made a very "natural" presentaton. Not sure how the hook and bait are oriented to one another. Not much information really. It was just a "strange" home made rig that was producing fish like crazy.

 

Phone

[Norfolkdipper]

Tomorrow I will see what happens as on the edge of the fens with Renrag. Pics & report later that night.

 

I do however still want to try a paternoster rig idea, if I have enough bits to make it. Basically it is a 'box set up. With a lead at the bottom of a line linked to the main line. 36" or do above it is a bubble float to suspend the line, link & bait. a second small bubble float is attatched to the linked line just before the swivel as another bait suspender. The main line is free running through the swivel to a trace & bait. My theoery being this would keep the bait in mid water & reacting to the flow. This presentation would allow a pike a clean midwater take & give a direct indication at the rod. yes there is a chance of twisting & I accept that. But unless ideas are tried, we don't find out. Once casted out, I will let it settle then tighten the main line, which in theory will lift the bait in to mid water. (I HOPE!!!!!!) Well that's the theory anyway. One can but try.

Mark.

[Dick Dastardly]

Mark be very carefull with paternoster rigs mate.You need to give a bit of thought to "up traces" to avoid bite offs. Here is a very good and well proven Sunken Float Paternoster rig that I have used for Pike for years. It works with both live and natural deadbaits-

 

[Dick Dastardly]

Over the years most would apply, but mostly the problem is the bait 'twisting up' on the snap tackle. I have tried putting a shot on the wire infront of the rear hook to stop it sliding up & twisting the fish. This doea appear to have solved the problem. The other problem is bait seperation during casting, so I now stick to frozen baits & leaving them alone for as long as possible.

Mark

 

 

I presume then you are using a snap tackle with a "Ryder" hook/the top treble isn't fixed?

[Dick Dastardly]

Baits coming off mid cast is also a problem solved quite easily.For this we refer back to your original question!

 

First dead baits-

 

I simply divide dead baits into two classes- soft and tough! Basically with tough baits (such as Mackerel,freshwater deads,eel,lamprey etc) I hook my baits very simply.I take the barbed hook of my top treble (I use semi barbed trebles which have two barbless points and one barbed) or the single if using a uni-rig, and i bury this in the spine near the tail.It must penetrate the bone itself.As this will have a hard job coming out I just lightly nick the barbed point of the bottom treble in the flank. The old "rule" of making sure the bait will come off on the strike (supposedly so the pike cant use it to lever the hooks out) has long been wrote off as old rubbish by most experienced pikers.

 

Soft baits (sardine for example) I do exactly the same! However I have a few inches of shearing elastic tied to the shank of the top.I wrap this around the wrist of the bait to help secure it.

 

Its best to cast ALL dead baits frozen except for freshwater "naturals". Not only are these tough enough to cast unfrozen but you need to pierce the swim bladder of them to stop them being buoyant....harder to do if frozen solid!.

 

Now as I mentioned earlier there are other factors to think about when mounting baits,staying with deads for the moment. As prey is normally swallowed head first it makes sense to have the bait mounted so that when it is swallowed the hooks are pointing in the right direction for when you strike. I even do this when using half baits as they still take them head end first (even head halves). That said with suspended dead baits I allways mount them with the top barb in the muscle just in front of the dorsal fin and the bottom one in the area of the pectoral fin.

 

With live baits I mount them the same depending on the presentation and rig I'm using.Only difference it that with a live I ensure the bottom barbed point is hooked through the "wrist" of the pectoral fin.I do this as the heart is located near here and if you push it into the body in this area you will kill the bait. Many people thing you can only hook lives "back and pec" but "tail and pec" offers a good alternative and also far better if you are ledgering a dead bait.

 

So far all my comments have referred to static baits or baits fished in still/very slow running water. Bring in running water or baits being "moved" through the water as in "wobbled" or "trolled" and a bit more thought has to be used to allow for this. A dead needs to be hooked "head up" the trace for both so that it stays stable and behaves naturally.A live has to be mounted the same other wise it will simply "drown"! Sadly this does cause problems with poor hook ups.

 

With "wobbled" baits the bait is again best mounted "head up" but here you need to decide if you want to fish the bit "straight" or "bent" Now this isn't any strange sexual choice but simply refers to the way you mount the bait and the action it will then give. A straight bait will fish only with any action you impart to it.If you bend the bait slightly by mounting the hooks so they cause the bait to be curved when retrieved it will spin. There are many different mounts available that include various weights ,hooks and clips! Only one of these I recommend is the well proven Drakovitch Rig.

 

I usually prefer a standard snap with the top barbed point in the skull or eye socket of the bait with the bottom one just slipped into the flank or in front of the dorsal. I'm not a lover of the three hook set ups as I feel these are unnecessary and do not suit my style of wobbling (ie very slow and close to/on the bottom). The only other dead bait wobbling set up I use is with quite small (minus 5") baits.Here I use a large single treble mounted on a trace which has a large button slid on it and rather than a swivel at the top just a small loop. The bait is mounted by threading the trace with a baiting needle up the vent and out of the mouth.The treble sits tight against the button up tight to the baits vent.

 

These are the only set ups I use now and find the whole single hook/hair rig/Kebab set up/ "Tagging" stuff totally unnecessary and usually promoted by people who cant deal with (or should I say cant be bothered to learn to deal with) trebles. But the Treble v Single thing is a whole debate on its own!

Edited November 8, 2011 by BUDGIE

[Norfolkdipper]

Budgie

Thanks for your time to post that. Very useful.

 

Had a good day blanking on the R Great Ouse from Denver sluice to ten Mile Bank, ( a long walk of about 2 miles). We wern't they only ones there today & all blanked. The water was gin clear & still had a late bed of weed. Tried the following to no avail :- Spinners, plugs, Leadgered deadbait, floating deadbait, ( both whole & half herring), but nothing. As water so clear expected to see fry in the edge, but nothing. Had a southerly wind pushing along the surface & light cloud to start, thickening over later. Am going to the R Thurne area on Friday, so fingers crossed. But as they say 'that is fishing'. Took 6 frozen herring along & brought 5 & a tail back. Forgot to change spool on 2nd reel, on had 30yds on it of 6lb line. Found out first cast, so was down to 1 rod for the day. One thing I really like about lure / pike fishing is the amount of tackle is a lot less. Overall we had a great day & enjoyed the stroll......

Mark.

[Dick Dastardly]

One thing I will say Mark is that Ive definitely found one thing.....Yes you do get good days and bad days fishing regardless of methods,baits etc BUT on a lot of days the difference in catches to lives or deads can be MAJOR! I nearly allways fish two dead and two live when bait fishing.Try this (or one and one for example if your not allowed/don't want to use four) and over a few seasons you will see what I mean! Quite often the best of days for one of them can be the worse on the other! Not rocket science to work out your going to catch a lot less if you limit yourself to only one type.

 

As an example a local river to me can see me catching 30 odd pike on lives on a good live bait day whilst the deads produce one or two if any! On a bad day having the deads out as well as the lives can mean the difference between banking one or two fish and blanking! Another example is I often bag up on waters where most struggle,not because I'm a great pike angler but purely because I'm fishing different to the rest.Using lives or natural deads when everyone else are using "designer" brought from the tackle shop in a bag baits! No need to take my word simply try and you will soon see after a few sessions.After a few seasons you will wonder just WTF you were playing at!