Dead bait presentation.

[Renrag39]

Good call Budgie but even the 'regular' coarse anglers after Roach etc blanked so doubt we would have had much success after lives unfortunately.

Out again tomorrow as Mark said, on the Thurne. Hopefully the experiment shall begin there.

Myself, I shall be waving the lure banner, eager to see how it fares in a face off over the season, be interesting to see our results after a year or so. I'm quietly confident that I'll have the edge in numbers but suspect Marks' live and DB captures may tip the scales with a higher average size.

 

Renrag

[Dick Dastardly]

even the 'regular' coarse anglers after Roach etc blanked so doubt we would have had much success after lives unfortunately.

 

Ironically good pike catching conditions are poor bait catching ones hence forth (ooo err going to get all controversial now!) why historically serious/successful live baiters have allways kept a supply of readily available baits rather than having to struggle/fail to catch them on the day while the pike are really having it and the prey fish aren't!

 

Mark did you see my question re Ryder hooks/sliding trebles?

[Andy Macfarlane]

I'm amazed at how many pikers I've seen using a sliding treble that has been allowed to freely move. I'm even more amazed at how many pikers use shop-bought snap-tackle of this kind.

[Dick Dastardly]

I'm amazed at how many pikers I've seen using a sliding treble that has been allowed to freely move. I'm even more amazed at how many pikers use shop-bought snap-tackle of this kind.

 

 

Some are quite experienced anglers as well Andy,I sacked them many many moons ago and prefer to make up fixed snap tackles to the size required for what ever baits I have/using.I allways attach my snap tackle to a release clip, so its easy enough to change the snap tackle if I need to.

 

I have other reasons given for having the top treble not fixed as well as just the adjustable factor-

 

Better hooking (in that if the top treble engages first the bottom one still can be pulled in being one. But I'm still not convinced.

 

The Burkester uses a Ryder treble but cant remember why just now! Unfortunately he most likely wont see this

at the moment as I know hes real busy at the moment.

 

Be interesting to hear why from any others that use them........but I certainly wont be using them or recommending them!

[Norfolkdipper]

Budgie

Yes I did see & I put a shot in front of the rear treble so it cant slide. As Renrag says up on the Thurne tomorrow. Will see if things inprove. report on here after return.

Mark

[Phone]

Peter Waller,

 

Just reviewing this thread. Gulp! My "political correct" comment did appear (well, was) a bit "smart arce". Sorry, I did not mean to be "holy" but let me explain. It was the "circle hook" and crushed barb issue I was trying to make. Not a "proper fishing" issue. While I have stated on any number of occasions I'm no pike fisherman I do use circle hooks for all the American species of catfish. But the mechanical aspect of the barb when removing a circle hook doesn't come into play. At least not in my experience on "non-pike" species. Eagle Claw, one manufacturer of the circle hook point that out in their corporate discussion of the hook and "how it works" vs the octopus hook. Specifically the radical bend in the hook point. They don't discuss species or specific applications.

 

Certainly I defer to your experience and again apologize for a less than well thought out comment. Forgive a carp fisherman if you can.

 

Phone

[Andy Macfarlane]

Budgie

Yes I did see & I put a shot in front of the rear treble so it cant slide. As Renrag says up on the Thurne tomorrow. Will see if things inprove. report on here after return.

Mark

 

You're supposed to measure up the trebles to the size of the bait in question and then fix the upper treble with a couple of turns round the shank so it's essentially fixed.

[Norfolkdipper]

You're supposed to measure up the trebles to the size of the bait in question and then fix the upper treble with a couple of turns round the shank so it's essentially fixed.

I will remember that to try in future. Didnt get out today as ill, p*****d off about it as it meant I let Renrag down. I expected this thread top spread it's wings & slowly it is. Using the correct hook is certainly an issue, as we 'old schooler's' got straight for the snap tackle. I do see the advantages of using a single large hook as well. My only question is what is the 'cast off' rate when using a single hook ? I struggle to keep bait on when using a snap tackle. Annoying when you see the tackle go one way & the deadbait go off in the oppersite.

If we really wanted we could take each water condition at a time, such as :- Deep & slow, Shallow & fast, visa versa & still. So that is five water types that should cover it all. Unless you know better!!! Thinking only of pike, what would be you minimum & max weight for a lure?? I have over the years caught 20lb+ on a 1" spoon & caught 2lb jacks on a 8" plug. So have I answerd my own question there or made you think a bit?

Either way there is such a selection of lures today, I don't believe anyone could carry enough to cover all the situations. So there'sanother question:- what's in your lure bag?

Enough for now or I will get carried away & type pages, see what you all think of that & I eagerly await your replies.

( I am really enjoying this thread)]

Mark

[Phone]

Norfolk, All,

 

Notice, I suspect you are really enjoying this thread because I am essentially absent. A reprieve if you will.

 

Odd, your rules.

 

In every state I checked, because I knew Missouri’s laws, the rules for hooks for bait fishing are “about" as follow:

 

[paraphrased] 1. For live or dead bait fishing no more than two SINGLE hooks may be used. Both must be firmly imbedded in or securely attached to the bait. The eyes of the hooks must be no less that a hook’s length apart….

 

2. …Double or treble hooks are prohibited.

 

Phone

[Dick Dastardly]

The subject of single hooks for pike comes up every year so before we discuss any rigs with single hooks please excuse me if I cut and paste this-

 

Well it’s that time of year again. Despite the extra (un-seasonal?) rain the piking season is well and truly underway. After a slow start I have suddenly received a deluge of new requests for Pike Teach Ins! Talk about leaving it late! I mention this as one of the most common subject of discussion at these and indeed amongst new pikers every where is the age old one of treble hooks.

 

Before we get into it any further let me say I base my views on over 35 years of pike fishing (40 of fishing) during which I must have tried every "new" idea going and then some! This includes things like single hooks, double hooks, various trace materials, various bait hooking techniques the lot! I am also not the only one to have done this so I've discussed and swapped findings with many other pikers, either directly or by reading their reports/articles. In addition to angling experience I also base this on my experience of retaining pike for periods of time before transfer to other waters and my studies in Freshwater Biology.

 

The standard "Jardine Snap Tackle" which uses two treble hooks has long been the recognised standard arrangement for bait fishing. Over the years though many have tried to get away from the use of the treble hook. People often say that they are worried that treble hooks will cause harm/damage to the fish especially if taken deep. At this point lets be quite clear that no matter how quick you strike, what rig you use there will always be a chance of deep hooking. All we can do is minimise this chance to the best of our ability and above all learn how to deal with it if/when it does happen. I honestly believe (and admit to it being the reason I first experimented with singles) that a lot of anglers shy away from trebles purely as they don’t have the necessary unhooking skills and are looking for what they think is an "easier" way.

 

I believe that used sensibly with the correct knowledge of handling and unhooking techniques that trebles are not only far more effective but less potentially dangerous than large singles. There are several points in my argument against singles. Firstly a single hook that can be used with standard sized bait and both be able to hold the bait securely and still hook the fish needs to be of a much larger size than a treble which will do the same size. Don't take my word for it get out half a mackerel from your bait freezer and take a size 6 single (for this discussion lets agree that the most probable "standard" size treble hook used for bait fishing is a 6) Hold the single up to the bait and see if you could securely hook the bait and still be confident on the strike? No it’s obviously not big enough! So try a 4 or a 2 still a bit iffy isn’t it? Realistically to enable the bait to be secure and still have a good chance of a hook up we are looking at 1/0 and above. Yes we could put the bait on a hair so that the hook isn't masked but more about that later.

 

So if we are agreed that to use a single we must use one a lot bigger than the normal treble I will continue.

Once you have decided on a suitable size single compare the length of the point on it to that of the size 6 treble. A big difference as you can see.

 

I make the point of the length of the hook point as this obviously determines the maximum depth that the hook point can penetrate. And IMO this is the crucial "physics of the hook" that can cause damage or fatality. The further the hook penetrates the more likelihood of an important organ being punctured. Try and get an "exploded" diagram of a Pike and I think most of you will be a bit surprised at the location of vital organs such as the heart. A standard sized treble hook only (in most sizes of fish) penetrates into the relatively soft protective tissues or the hard bony part. Even if swallowed it is still less likely to penetrate the stomach (remember a pikes stomach wall is quite thick to enable it to cope with spines, fin rays etc) than the much longer singles point.

 

My other concern is that due to the single hooks far inferior hooking ability missed runs will be treated by allowing the run to develop longer and longer. This is just human nature. The problem then is that you are very much increasing the chance of putting that hook in a position that it can cause damage. This is also one of the main problems encountered by "hair rigging" the bait. Quite often on a normally timed strike the hook won’t even be in the mouth. I've seen some nasty "cheek hook ups" with hair rigged baits.

 

Due to this I came to the conclusion long ago that a pair of semi barbless (one point has a barb to hold the bait on and the others that normally hook the fish are barbless) are by far the most efficient and Pike friendly option. Incidentally unless deep hooked it is normally only one of each of the treble’s points that do penetrate anyway.

 

Recently (from around the introduction of American style Spinner Baits and even more recently the growth in popularity of the plastic Bulldawg type lure) lots of pikers are now questioning the safety of the large singles used on these.This in turn has made them look to the use of the admittedly smaller but still big singles used for bait fishing. This year I’m hoping to be able to carry out "post mortems on dead pike that have been caught on large singles just to try and see if there is any solid biological evidence to back this up. I will post my findings next Spring.

 

For those who still think singles are the way ahead then fine I will leave you to find out for your selves but If this at least makes you give it a bit of thought then all the better. Be interested to hear your views either way.

 

NB: I have been experimenting with Circle hooks this year to see if they could be useful. Their unique shape certainly seems to avoid deep penetration but not deep hooking.However early days yet so cant really pass coment.My initial views are admittedly that I don't feel an over whelming need to move away from trebles but feel I should at least get some experience with these hooks so I can comment from an informed view.

 

I will add that I feel I have now used circles enough to make my mind up and simply they are not for me.I've found that I do miss more takes on them than my standard gear.Yes they are often in the jaw scissors but Im not so sure (after seeing damage) that this is such a good thing! Ive had a couple (although admittedly once you've got the "rolling out" technique sussed in general they come out easier) of hook ups where they have been impossible to get out without cutting.Knowing the correct techniques this is something I very very rarely have had with trebles.

 

In general yes it might be initially easier for a beginner to remove a circle rather than a deep treble but I still feel its best to stick with trebles and LEARN the correct techniques. But each to their own.One last criticism I have of circles (although that's not fair maybe I should say "criticism of the promotion of circles by experienced pikers") is that you still have to be able to handle a pike correctly! many think because they are using a circle and not a treble they don't need to learn these skills as the hook "just comes out"....