Fishing nets ban to protect birds

[seafoods]

Now you will note that I have highlighted a bit in your post with which I would dispute, you say in regard to increased mesh size the fish caught will, quote ‘certainly won't increase the number of bigger ones.’ I would suggest with all due respect that if fewer smaller fish are caught because they escape then their shortfall will be made up by taking yet more big fish all be it longer fishing times more fule used etc.

 

 

You can dispute it if you like but you are wrong. There are a fixed number of hours in a day and days in a week, days at sea are regulated. Bigger mesh size in a trawl will reduce the number of juveniles caught and discarded, nothing more, nothing less. A net is towed for a fixed time (skippers preference), so tow length won't change. It takes the same time to haul and shoot a net which has nothing in it as a net which is full so that won't change. You can't add hours to the day or days to the week so fishing time won't change. The EU aren't going to allocate more days at sea so that can't increase. Same tow length, same number of tows, same number of days, less bulk caught so the crew spend less time on deck for the same marketable catch, fuel consumption reduced because not towing the same bulk, end of story.

[barry luxton]

...................... and fewer big bass.

 

The MLS of bass as set by the EU is 37.7cm that is 12” in old money now B.A.S.S. are again pushing for an increase to 48cm four more inches now that is a very good size fish and bigger than most plates. So to make that work up goes the mesh size and to get to quota more and more bigger fish are to be targeted, could someone please explain the sense in that particularly while the pair trawlers are having an unrestricted field day on breading shoals.

 

Fewer big bass, not according to dartangler.

 

Commercially there is an amount restriction on the catch, so having a feild day is an exaggeration. Again there are no reports of shortage of small bass, there are also no warnings from defra etc re the stock. More assumption then.

 

300mm =1ft in old money. A mls bass is head, guts, with a small body, not a lot of meat, lots of bone. A 500mm bass has just left juvenile stage into adulthood, a couple of nice fillets. And long may it remain on the ground.

[Bob Shotter]

Fewer big bass, not according to dartangler.

 

Commercially there is an amount restriction on the catch, so having a feild day is an exaggeration. Again there are no reports of shortage of small bass, there are also no warnings from defra etc re the stock. More assumption then.

 

300mm =1ft in old money. A mls bass is head, guts, with a small body, not a lot of meat, lots of bone. A 500mm bass has just left juvenile stage into adulthood, a couple of nice fillets. And long may it remain on the ground.

 

 

Quote Dartangler I fish commercially for bass off South Devon strictly with rod and line and always, to avoid the heavy penalties that would be incurred if I land under size fish,,,,,,,,,,,, ‘I share the fishing grounds on many occasions with recreational anglers. I have to say I have not seen many bass returned to the sea by them. So obviously there are many recreational anglers quite happy to take small as well as large bass home,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I have some buyers who will only take small bass for their customers. Indeed they often say they wish I was able to take them smaller bass, to match the farmed ones. So there must be a consumer demand for small bass,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Now I wish Frank all the best in his efforts to catch larger bass. I can assure him they are out there, but I would urge caution in what he, BASS, and the AT clamour for,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, A final thought from someone who is fortunate enough to enjoy a lot of line fishing - bass is overrated as a sport species. There are far better sport fish out there. A fight from a good Pollack far exceeds that from a sizeable bass!’

 

In short some areas 'presumably east devon and west dorset' have mostly small bass, Not all anglers are intrested in size, buyers want plate size fish, that seems to support my theory, so to do the views from some of the worlds top scentist who can prove we are fishing from the top down and that is not a good idea.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Bob Shotter

[barry luxton]

Quote Dartangler I fish commercially for bass off South Devon strictly with rod and line and always, to avoid the heavy penalties that would be incurred if I land under size fish,,,,,,,,,,,, ‘I share the fishing grounds on many occasions with recreational anglers. I have to say I have not seen many bass returned to the sea by them. So obviously there are many recreational anglers quite happy to take small as well as large bass home,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I have some buyers who will only take small bass for their customers. Indeed they often say they wish I was able to take them smaller bass, to match the farmed ones. So there must be a consumer demand for small bass,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Now I wish Frank all the best in his efforts to catch larger bass. I can assure him they are out there, but I would urge caution in what he, BASS, and the AT clamour for,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, A final thought from someone who is fortunate enough to enjoy a lot of line fishing - bass is overrated as a sport species. There are far better sport fish out there. A fight from a good Pollack far exceeds that from a sizeable bass!’

 

In short some areas 'presumably east devon and west dorset' have mostly small bass, Not all anglers are intrested in size, buyers want plate size fish, that seems to support my theory, so to do the views from some of the worlds top scentist who can prove we are fishing from the top down and that is not a good idea.

 

........... not all anglers are interested in size.

 

Where did you dig that up from. Since when have anglers demonstrated that they are not fussed if the bass they catch are small? Bet dart knows my mate John Bovey, he wouldn't suggest small is better in front of him. I can imagine the reply that would be returned.

 

I'm supprised you have used quotes from dartangler, he really does lend support to increasing the mls for bass. Your staw poll confirms by 3-1 Here we have dart, confirming anglers take small bass, yet if there was legislation in place to improve the quality of the bass, i have no doubt all will comply, without need for extra policing. As for line caught, that surly must be the best instance for the survival of fish returned. Your argument of mucus membrane does not apply to the larger sized bass, even you have conceeded that one. As for dart's small bass customers, increase the amount of farmed one's then to suit that nich market. job done. These scientists who speak of fishing from top down, does that apply to the 60% line caught bass off dorset, perhaps you can confirm that one at least.

 

Here's one for you to chew on, are you aware of the average size of the breeding stock bass that are targetted while shoeling?

 

What about your previous comment to me where you have stated that Mr Derriman rubbished BASS's proposel during the cifca disscusion for an increase. Can you expand on that one?

 

Last of all, what about the dated topic from the old sacn regarding more and bigger fish. While reffering to bass on the rocks at portland. Any comment on that one?

[Bob Shotter]

........... not all anglers are interested in size.

 

Where did you dig that up from. Since when have anglers demonstrated that they are not fussed if the bass they catch are small? Bet dart knows my mate John Bovey, he wouldn't suggest small is better in front of him. I can imagine the reply that would be returned.

 

I'm supprised you have used quotes from dartangler, he really does lend support to increasing the mls for bass. Your staw poll confirms by 3-1 Here we have dart, confirming anglers take small bass, yet if there was legislation in place to improve the quality of the bass, i have no doubt all will comply, without need for extra policing. As for line caught, that surly must be the best instance for the survival of fish returned. Your argument of mucus membrane does not apply to the larger sized bass, even you have conceeded that one. As for dart's small bass customers, increase the amount of farmed one's then to suit that nich market. job done. These scientists who speak of fishing from top down, does that apply to the 60% line caught bass off dorset, perhaps you can confirm that one at least.

 

Here's one for you to chew on, are you aware of the average size of the breeding stock bass that are targetted while shoeling?

 

What about your previous comment to me where you have stated that Mr Derriman rubbished BASS's proposel during the cifca disscusion for an increase. Can you expand on that one?

 

Last of all, what about the dated topic from the old sacn regarding more and bigger fish. While reffering to bass on the rocks at portland. Any comment on that one?

 

 

I think it is important to remember we are all entitled to an opinion and we must all realise those opinions may well differ irrespective of who may be right or wrong. As you point out the straw poll on the RSA Facebook page suggests sea anglers support an increase in the minimum landing size, which does not make it right, any more than my view against an increase is right.

 

As a point of clarity all minimum sizes have been set by the EU and nationally over many years.

 

I have no wish to enter into a debacle with you over the comments of a third party other than to say your claim that Dartangler would really lend support to increasing the mls for bass when his comments in my previous post above and copied from his original (ie. I would urge caution in what he, BASS, and the AT clamour for) seems to dispute that. The comments of Mr Derriman CFO Cornwall IFCA were not recorded in the minutes of the IFCA meeting just as comments posted else where by Chris Caines at a CEFAS meeting did not appear in the minutes, that does not mean they were not spoken.

 

I’'m often asked to explain why I’m against the increase of MLS so here once again I will list why I think they are a waste of time.

 

1. To be effective commercial net mesh sizes will need to be increased. Even then not all undersize Bass will escape and more discards will result.

2. There is no quota set for Bass.

3. There is no restriction on effort of shoaling bass in the western approaches BTW the size of these fish will be 37.5cm and larger that is the recognised size at which Bass can start to bread.

4. Looking at the stock as a whole the fish numbers of fry will drop dramatically, mortality will reduce as the size increases and at the current mls 37.5 cm (12.25 inches) the population will have few predators with man posing the biggest threat and mans trawled gear taking the majority of fish.

 

So if you up the MLS you put more pressure on the top end that is fish bigger than 48cm or 16 inches that is a good size fish for any meal and bigger than the ones preferred in those posh restaurants. Fish above this size according to many anglers are already in short supply so why put unnecessary pressure on them when anglers report an abundance of smaller fish. Fish in the 37.5 to 48cm size are the highest in numbers of the alowable catch stock and they can be fished sustainably. Thus you reduce the effort on the top end and taking fewer Big Bass will improve the population because science says that bigger fish produce more and stronger off spring and bigger fish is that not what sea anglers want?

 

I’m not a member of the old Sea Angling Conservation Network and not familiar with the article to which you refer a link would have been useful.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Bob Shotter

[Phone]

boys, Boys, BOYS,

 

You're preaching to each others choir. Can you say something that might be "meaningful" or "defining" without "showing off" the tecnical aspect for the members at large. I read the entire thread - - TWICE - - not a clue??? The only thing I can determne for sure is that you don't agree. Did you'all notice that?

 

The one comment I would make.

"Anglers" are hobbiests.

"Fishermen" have a commercial interest.

 

If you at least used those two word appropriately(for me) as to "whos ox is gored" I could get a bit closer to the discussion.

 

Phone

Edit: Something a little closer to home for me. How do you feel about tossing Alka Seltzer tablets in the air to the sea gulls? Alka Seltzer pops their head "clean off" after they get stuck in the gullet. Head goes one way - bird another.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Phone

[cleeclive]

I think it is important to remember we are all entitled to an opinion and we must all realise those opinions may well differ irrespective of who may be right or wrong. As you point out the straw poll on the RSA Facebook page suggests sea anglers support an increase in the minimum landing size, which does not make it right, any more than my view against an increase is right.

 

As a point of clarity all minimum sizes have been set by the EU and nationally over many years.

 

I have no wish to enter into a debacle with you over the comments of a third party other than to say your claim that Dartangler would really lend support to increasing the mls for bass when his comments in my previous post above and copied from his original (ie. I would urge caution in what he, BASS, and the AT clamour for) seems to dispute that. The comments of Mr Derriman CFO Cornwall IFCA were not recorded in the minutes of the IFCA meeting just as comments posted else where by Chris Caines at a CEFAS meeting did not appear in the minutes, that does not mean they were not spoken.

 

I’'m often asked to explain why I’m against the increase of MLS so here once again I will list why I think they are a waste of time.

 

1. To be effective commercial net mesh sizes will need to be increased. Even then not all undersize Bass will escape and more discards will result.

2. There is no quota set for Bass.

3. There is no restriction on effort of shoaling bass in the western approaches BTW the size of these fish will be 37.5cm and larger that is the recognised size at which Bass can start to bread.

4. Looking at the stock as a whole the fish numbers of fry will drop dramatically, mortality will reduce as the size increases and at the current mls 37.5 cm (12.25 inches) the population will have few predators with man posing the biggest threat and mans trawled gear taking the majority of fish.

 

So if you up the MLS you put more pressure on the top end that is fish bigger than 48cm or 16 inches that is a good size fish for any meal and bigger than the ones preferred in those posh restaurants. Fish above this size according to many anglers are already in short supply so why put unnecessary pressure on them when anglers report an abundance of smaller fish. Fish in the 37.5 to 48cm size are the highest in numbers of the alowable catch stock and they can be fished sustainably. Thus you reduce the effort on the top end and taking fewer Big Bass will improve the population because science says that bigger fish produce more and stronger off spring and bigger fish is that not what sea anglers want?

 

I’m not a member of the old Sea Angling Conservation Network and not familiar with the article to which you refer a link would have been useful.

 

 

I thinkthat you guys are getting into some fairly Knit Picky areas of fisheries science here that scientists could not even give a proven answer to. I f I can pick up on a few points:-

 

Seafoods comments on hHP amd the performance of trawls was very few and the fact is that any form of technical legislation imposed onto a trawl net to improve its selectivity can be tampered with by a fisherman if it is in his financial interes to do so. Never forget that a fishing boat is a large business investment to create wealth for its owners and crew and anything that hinders the power to create wealth is likely to be tampered with.

 

It was said to me many years ago by the Governments fisheries management strategists," there is only one way that we can ensure that fishing boats are not damaging the resources, and that is to keep them tied up in port"!. If they are out fishing they are likely to be tampering with the gear or their EU log books. This was said during the 1900's at the height of the 'Black Fish' era. It still goes on today.

 

Regarding this theory of releasing more small fish and catching more big ones, I was confused, this could be my age, tho onset of altziehmers or some other scenario that I am as yet un-aware of, or maybe I am just bieng too polite.

 

The bottom line is if the big fish ain't in the path of your trawl, or where you tow or where you set your gill net or where you cast your hook you won't catch them. Good skippers who have years of experience of thie grounds will know that large fish will turn up in certain places at certain times and that will be a little bonanza for them. However as stocks have declined over the years there are fewer of these bonanzas.

 

I often here anglers getting all excited when they are having a year with lots of large cod in their catches as we have been having in the Humber this year. However if the two and three year olds are missing from the year classes this is infact possibly a very poor sign.

 

Very complicated all this fisheries management stuff whith no clearly proven answers. The anglers who want to have a say in the management of our sport jump on the bits which they think will suit their political ends without considering the broader picture. I think that they also forget that fish swim about! Fairly cluless on the whole most of them I guess!

 

Its fun sitting back and watching what will happen

 

Anway I caught a nice Bull Huss off Madfoot Beach inTorquay this afternoon

[barry luxton]

Anway I caught a nice Bull Huss off Madfoot Beach inTorquay this afternoon

errrm, your turn for the firing line, was that caught in the bay, i have been going there for more than 30 years and thats a new beach, never heard of it. Sure you men't meadfoot. More about the bull huss please. what boat was you on.

[Bob Shotter]

I thinkthat you guys are getting into some fairly Knit Picky areas of fisheries science here that scientists could not even give a proven answer to. I f I can pick up on a few points:-

 

Seafoods comments on hHP amd the performance of trawls was very few and the fact is that any form of technical legislation imposed onto a trawl net to improve its selectivity can be tampered with by a fisherman if it is in his financial interes to do so. Never forget that a fishing boat is a large business investment to create wealth for its owners and crew and anything that hinders the power to create wealth is likely to be tampered with.

 

It was said to me many years ago by the Governments fisheries management strategists," there is only one way that we can ensure that fishing boats are not damaging the resources, and that is to keep them tied up in port"!. If they are out fishing they are likely to be tampering with the gear or their EU log books. This was said during the 1900's at the height of the 'Black Fish' era. It still goes on today.

 

Regarding this theory of releasing more small fish and catching more big ones, I was confused, this could be my age, tho onset of altziehmers or some other scenario that I am as yet un-aware of, or maybe I am just bieng too polite.

 

The bottom line is if the big fish ain't in the path of your trawl, or where you tow or where you set your gill net or where you cast your hook you won't catch them. Good skippers who have years of experience of thie grounds will know that large fish will turn up in certain places at certain times and that will be a little bonanza for them. However as stocks have declined over the years there are fewer of these bonanzas.

 

I often here anglers getting all excited when they are having a year with lots of large cod in their catches as we have been having in the Humber this year. However if the two and three year olds are missing from the year classes this is infact possibly a very poor sign.

 

Very complicated all this fisheries management stuff whith no clearly proven answers. The anglers who want to have a say in the management of our sport jump on the bits which they think will suit their political ends without considering the broader picture. I think that they also forget that fish swim about! Fairly cluless on the whole most of them I guess!

 

Its fun sitting back and watching what will happen

 

Anway I caught a nice Bull Huss off Madfoot Beach inTorquay this afternoon

 

Hi Cleeclive Good to hear you had a Bullie well done mate. We have them in what we call the river here in Falmouth some are jet black and run to 20lb, great fun on light gear.

 

Your right about some science for what its worth even the EU commissioner made the point that if the data is not 100% the result cannot be guaranteed. However when many scientist put different data results together and a common picture starts to emerge then I would be inclined to go with it, wouldn’t you? This fishing from the top down and bigger fish producing more and stronger off spring is quite logical add to that the research from around the world and I find it hard to dispute. Anglers generally would like more and bigger fish and were that to happen then the stock itself would one suspect also be recovering. It’s how you get to that point while still supplying the demand.

 

Just my view but it seems to me none of the old and tried methods work, we keep upping the MLS thus adding pressure on the top end when the bigger fish are harder to find. Sorry but it just don’t make much sense to me.

[seafoods]

Just my view but it seems to me none of the old and tried methods work, we keep upping the MLS thus adding pressure on the top end when the bigger fish are harder to find. Sorry but it just don’t make much sense to me.

 

I must've missed that, 'we keep upping the MLS'. when did that happen?