Cold wind and strong sun

[Anderoo]

This is a topic on how to catch fish

[robtherake]

I wondered how long before thermocline and stratification would be mentioned! Simply doesnt happen in waters as shallow as we get down here! and that is one of the few scientific "facts" that I do remember and one often ignored by anglers!

 

Budgie, do you know whether a stratified system forms below a precise depth, or whether it's formation is a more dynamic process?

[Phone]

Androo,

 

Not really, in fact you're the first to go off topic and use the word fish.

 

Phone

[RUDD]

Youve missunderstood me Den I was refering to Rudds post-

 

"Warm water is warm because the molcules heat up and make friction they move around much faster when an object is a liquid then a solid. Cold water is in the process of becoming a solid the molecules will slow down and compact to compact molecules need coldness and when something is warming up it is melting and needs heat to melt."

From this you could deduct that both the sun and wind are heating the water - think about it - in winter waters freeze during frost at night or on cold days with no wind.

A water that is moving such as a river does not freeze - I have sat by a winter lake with a breeze fishing away when the wind has stopped and I have seen ice form in front of my eyes - within an hour I have been forced to pack up as it will freeze around your line.

 

In other words the wind "agitating" the water molecules and warming it up! not disputing the effects of a warm breeze.

Any molecules rubbed against each other cause friction which in turn generates a release of energy in the form of heat.

It may not be much but plays its part. In winter just enough to stop water freezing as air/land temp takes warmth from the water.

 

There are a few other factors not considered in the warming/cooling of water and that is the land temperature both around the water and where any water inbound water from springs/streams etc.

Any water passing through or over heated up ground (near the surface) must absorb warmth from the land?

I would of though water would also suck warmth from its surronding banks warmed up by the sun/wind and in the winter the land take the warmth from the water when frosty?

Any thoughts.

[Dick Dastardly]

Budgie, do you know whether a stratified system forms below a precise depth, or whether it's formation is a more dynamic process?

Its been a long long time Rob and as those who have met me will attest to my memory is pretty screwed these days! Stratification occurs in most waters of a reasonable size to an extent in summer. Well in that the upper layer or epilimnion as its called is warmer than the lower layer (hypolimnion) and increases in "depth" as the year progresses and warms up. Stratification normally occurs from late May/early June until late September/early October. I can not remember all the details regarding depths/volumes of water in relation to temperatures etc that govern the "depth"/"width" that the epilimnion can "grow" to however it is indeed this depth/width that is important.

 

The Thermocline is basically when the wind pushes this band of warmer water "under the surface at an angle (sloping with the wind direction) this means that the epilimnion (obviously being warmer is preferred both by the fish for their comfort or certainly their food in regard to free swimming aquatic insects and zoo plankton etc) is not necessarily at the surface at the windward end but can be several metres down in fact beneath cooler surface water (note normally warmer water is at the surface as that is indeed where it is "warmed"/created or more importantly because it is lighter than cold water. More of interest to the trout angler possibly than for most coarse fishing situations. HOWEVER totally irrelevant any way as the sheer size of the "container" (be it a gravel pit,reservoir,glacial lake or loch) obviously dictates the volume of water and surface area that the wind can take effect on. Basically unless there is enough water the epilimnion just doesn't become deep enough to be "solid" enough for the wind to "push it under" forming a thermocline. In most southern gravel pits the epilimnion will be so "thin" that any wind actually dissipates it. Simply as there is not enough volume of water.

 

To put it into perspective even our "big" English Reservoirs such as Bewl Water (I mention this one as I used to be very familiar with it and have done a lot of "research" work on it) at 770acres some 12 1/2 miles around,depths up to 97' and at full capacity holding some 6900,000,000 gallons! is still to small (volume wise) to sustain a thermocline in its truest sense!

 

So after going around the houses and hoping my figures are right it is more dynamic than just a set depth or even volume but as you can see from my example it is simply something most fishermen just dont have to really take into consideration much South of Cumbria!

 

Please note I have put a lot of the terms Ive used in quotation marks,simply because although the process Ive described is correct I just cant remember a lot of the correct terminology!

[Dick Dastardly]

Any molecules rubbed against each other cause friction which in turn generates a release of energy in the form of heat.

It may not be much but plays its part. In winter just enough to stop water freezing as air/land temp takes warmth from the water.

 

There are a few other factors not considered in the warming/cooling of water and that is the land temperature both around the water and where any water inbound water from springs/streams etc.

Any water passing through or over heated up ground (near the surface) must absorb warmth from the land?

I would of though water would also suck warmth from its surrounding banks warmed up by the sun/wind and in the winter the land take the warmth from the water when frosty?

Any thoughts.

 

 

Yes there are a myriad of things affecting the warming/cooling affects on a body of water,so many in fact that I really believe that if we try to understand them all/take them into account we would end up disappearing up our own backsides! Thus why I have adopted my "Simple/Stupid" approach. I really believe (in most things fishing wise as well) that if any factor is important enough to really have an affect on our fishing that it will manifest itself so often over a period of time that the angler can't fail to notice it! If you don't (although still existing) it doesn't matter! Trying to understand the exact science behind it can often just confuse.

[poledark]

Budgie, right on all counts..Dick Walker has a lot to answer for with his thermocline hypothesis

 

All the rest of you, Sorry if I come across a bit sharp, but I just get a bit bored with talk of thermoclines..stratification and molecules being agitated Those who know me will attest to the fact that I rarely accept anything without proof, but I will quite often suggest that maybe....just maybe....certain things will/have occurred.

 

 

Some of you will have seen the underwater video taken at Wingham, and been surprised at the strength of the undertows. Huge volumes of water displaced by a strong wind, and travelling travelling back upwind. More than sufficient to alter the temp even in 20 foot of water, and equally possible t effect a complete turnover of the lake every few hours.

 

When I fished Bough Beech resevoir for trout, it was not uncommon to be able to simply cast out 30 yards and let the strong tow sweep the lure along the bank, walking to keep pace with it.

 

On other lakes I have trotted for Roach and Rudd, using the tow to good effect.

 

And if that wind is warmer than the water then it will have a quite dramatic effect on the temp, and usually on the fish as well.

 

Regarding sheltered shallow water (down to about 4foot). I would not be surprised that on a bright sunny day, even with a cold wind, the effect of the radiation may attract some fish, but never having tested whether the radiation (heat) can be felt thro a layer of water, I can only guess. Any scientists on here?

 

Den, back from the beach

Edited April 20, 2012 by poledark

[robtherake]

Its been a long long time Rob and as those who have met me will attest to my memory is pretty screwed these days! Stratification occurs in most waters of a reasonable size to an extent in summer. Well in that the upper layer or epilimnion as its called is warmer than the lower layer (hypolimnion) and increases in "depth" as the year progresses and warms up. Stratification normally occurs from late May/early June until late September/early October. I can not remember all the details regarding depths/volumes of water in relation to temperatures etc that govern the "depth"/"width" that the epilimnion can "grow" to however it is indeed this depth/width that is important.

 

The Thermocline is basically when the wind pushes this band of warmer water "under the surface at an angle (sloping with the wind direction) this means that the epilimnion (obviously being warmer is preferred both by the fish for their comfort or certainly their food in regard to free swimming aquatic insects and zoo plankton etc) is not necessarily at the surface at the windward end but can be several metres down in fact beneath cooler surface water (note normally warmer water is at the surface as that is indeed where it is "warmed"/created or more importantly because it is lighter than cold water. More of interest to the trout angler possibly than for most coarse fishing situations. HOWEVER totally irrelevant any way as the sheer size of the "container" (be it a gravel pit,reservoir,glacial lake or loch) obviously dictates the volume of water and surface area that the wind can take effect on. Basically unless there is enough water the epilimnion just doesn't become deep enough to be "solid" enough for the wind to "push it under" forming a thermocline. In most southern gravel pits the epilimnion will be so "thin" that any wind actually dissipates it. Simply as there is not enough volume of water.

 

To put it into perspective even our "big" English Reservoirs such as Bewl Water (I mention this one as I used to be very familiar with it and have done a lot of "research" work on it) at 770acres some 12 1/2 miles around,depths up to 97' and at full capacity holding some 6900,000,000 gallons! is still to small (volume wise) to sustain a thermocline in its truest sense!

 

So after going around the houses and hoping my figures are right it is more dynamic than just a set depth or even volume but as you can see from my example it is simply something most fishermen just dont have to really take into consideration much South of Cumbria!

 

Please note I have put a lot of the terms Ive used in quotation marks,simply because although the process Ive described is correct I just cant remember a lot of the correct terminology!

 

This mostly tallies with what I've read, and bad memory or not you've recalled far more than me, mate! Thanks.

[Dave H]

Budgie, right on all counts..Dick Walker has a lot to answer for with his thermocline hypothesis

 

All the rest of you, Sorry if I come across a bit sharp, but I just get a bit bored with talk of thermoclines..stratification and molecules being agitated Those who know me will attest to the fact that I rarely accept anything without proof, but I will quite often suggest that maybe....just maybe....certain things will/have occurred.

 

 

Some of you will have seen the underwater video taken at Wingham, and been surprised at the strength of the undertows. Huge volumes of water displaced by a strong wind, and travelling travelling back upwind. More than sufficient to alter the temp even in 20 foot of water, and equally possible t effect a complete turnover of the lake every few hours.

 

When I fished Bough Beech resevoir for trout, it was not uncommon to be able to simply cast out 30 yards and let the strong tow sweep the lure along the bank, walking to keep pace with it.

 

On other lakes I have trotted for Roach and Rudd, using the tow to good effect.

 

And if that wind is warmer than the water then it will have a quite dramatic effect on the temp, and usually on the fish as well.

 

Regarding sheltered shallow water (down to about 4foot). I would not be surprised that on a bright sunny day, even with a cold wind, the effect of the radiation may attract some fish, but never having tested whether the radiation (heat) can be felt thro a layer of water, I can only guess. Any scientists on here?

 

Den, back from the beach

 

Den

 

You did not come across to me as sharp but strongly opinionated and of a constructive nature it's when it starts to get derogatory it can get a bit off the mark and I certainly never saw any of that.

 

The Wingham underwater camera is something I heard about (is that the one you showed me budgie?) if it is it is quite incredible how we think we know how to catch them but quite often they are more intelligent than we give them credit for

 

 

Dave

[robtherake]

Dick Walker has a lot to answer for with his thermocline hypothesis

 

THATS where I saw it! In "Catching Fish" wasn't it? Mind, he was right about plenty of other things, I suppose.