Fishing away from a baited area

[Phone]

Androo,

 

Interesting thread - as always. The only way to know for sure is to ask the fish. Let me say I know it is not the proper English answer but it pains me a great deal that you guys give fish such huge powers of intelligence. Thoughtfulness, understanding, indulgence and conditional thought processes are not fishes long suit.

 

These are all things - suggested by both the question and the answers you have received. Not true.

You can't "trick" something that is dumb as a rock. There are more logical explainations for why fish "act" as they do.

 

Phone

Edited June 11, 2012 by Phone

[Phone]

Androo,

 

I believe in your approach to "bigger fish". Perhaps it is because bigger fish are just bullies and can occupy the "best spots". Or, I like to think the hookbait is more attractive (not as in attractant but attractive as a food source). The ground bait is to attract fish to the swim. I've observed, for whatever reason, the specimen fish are almost always caught at the edge of the congregration. Catching fish and attracting fish are two distinct and nearly unrelated functions by the angler.

 

I think the answer is simple - not "coffee house" complex.

 

Phone

Edited June 11, 2012 by Phone

[lutra]

Why does it have to be an all or nothing game?

 

Whats wrong with putting a small amount of bait in a good looking spot and seeing if you get a reaction and taking it from there?

[Vagabond]

Why does it have to be an all or nothing game?

 

Whats wrong with putting a small amount of bait in a good looking spot and seeing if you get a reaction and taking it from there?

 

Exactly

 

....and the assumption in this thread so far is that all the bait is fresh and palatable to the fish and remains so.

 

But what if, after a couple of days or so, the fish are avoiding the baited area, not because they are "spooked" by it, but because what is lying on the bottom uneaten is getting stale and may actually be off-putting ?

 

I recently posted on the "dangers of particles" thread (Post #22) an account of how I could see rotting sweetcorn on the bed of a clear lake - a legacy of previous fishers there. No fish visited that swim during the week I was there. I checked it visually several times, but did not fish there and the sweetcorn remained rotting and uneaten all that time. I caught fish, but nowhere near the offending swim.

 

Sensible groundbaiting , yes, but you can have too much of a good thing.

[Anderoo]

A baited spot doesn't have to mean loads of bait - in the recent tench fishing I've been baiting lightly and fishing one rod on the bait and one off it. The one off the bait has been catching.

 

I just wonder whether having the bait there is in any way beneficial or not...

 

Oh, and the bait is mostly attraction, there's not that much actual food, but it is designed to be very visible and 'smelly'.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Anderoo

[lutra]

A baited spot doesn't have to mean loads of bait - in the recent tench fishing I've been baiting lightly and fishing one rod on the bait and one off it. The one off the bait has been catching.

 

I just wonder whether having the bait there is in any way beneficial or not...

 

Oh, and the bait is mostly attraction, there's not that much actual food, but it is designed to be very visible and 'smelly'.

Is that not the kind of spot that would have enough distinction about it for even a fish to learn to avoid?

[Anderoo]

Is that not the kind of spot that would have enough distinction about it for even a fish to learn to avoid?

 

Yes, definitely! But I wonder whether having a baited spot like that with a bait fished away from it is better/worse/no different to a bait fished on its own...? They do avoid feeding on it, but they are clearly still in the area.

[RPM]

Androo,

 

Interesting thread - as always. The only way to know for sure is to ask the fish. Let me say I know it is not the proper English answer but it pains me a great deal that you guys give fish such huge powers of intelligence. Thoughtfulness, understanding, indulgence and conditional thought processes are not fishes long suit.

 

These are all things - suggested by both the question and the answers you have received. Not true.

You can't "trick" something that is dumb as a rock. There are more logical explainations for why fish "act" as they do.

 

Phone

 

I agree with most of that, especially about the intelligence credited to a pretty unitelligent creature which has the prime functions of survival and reproduction hard wired into its instinct - they certainly arent octopus which have been proven to to be able to learn. I do believe that there is some kind of acquired adaptation to the instinct of larger and older fish, especially carp, which has made them, somehow, to be more weary of being caught. Why are they so difficult to catch compared to the yearling roach and perch - apart from the obvious answer that they are less numerous?

 

Looking at the bigger picture however, and Im sure that this has been discussed elsewhere on the forum, is the spirit of anglling as a pleasurable hobby-come pastime and the seriousness in which it takes itself nowadays.

 

I look back at when my father took me fishing on the trent near Dunham bridge when I was a nipper, its was all about the expectation, the time spent with my dad, the getting up early, the picnics, the (sometimes) lovely weather. OK, this is a rather romantic view from the perspective of a child. As a grew, my father was often replaced by my mates mates over summer at Harlesthorpe Dam in Clowne where I had a season ticket and they were magical days as well, spent fishing in a lovely spot, just for the sake of fishing. Hair rigs, poles and electronic bite indicators were just showing up at the time, boilies were just coming onto the market but the baits used were luncheon meat, corn, bread, worms and maggots. Pellets, what pellets?

 

I got back into angling about 11 years ago after 15 years away and I started reading the press again with the inevitable adverts and features and I have to say that fishing really has gone a little mad in my opinion. It, and many of its participants, take the 'sport' if I can call it that, far too seriously. OK, progress is a good thing, take Sat Nav for instance, and im not averse to using the odd pellet now or hair rig but some of the new methodology, the baiting, the technology (poles, bait boats, method feeders etc) just narrow the field of movement too much, if you get my drift; we are just tying too hard to outwit a pretty unintelligent creature. The end result on this continuum is surely to have a big net which can scoop out all the fish in a pond/lake/river etc and they we can have our picture in the AT knowing that we have caught the biggest fish by the 'net method'. Lets not also forget the vastly increased litter produced by the packing all this new stuff is kept in. A1 pits after a few nights bivvying is like a post rock festival bankside.

 

Sunday was a lovely day, im now 36 and I took my 10 year old daughter to a local, picturesque millpond. We both sat there with a rod in hand catching up to half pound roach on maggot and it was lovely. The scenery was lovely, the banks clear of litter and rod pods (apart from a couple of sweary chavs in the corner - that's another story) and we enjoyed the day for what it was. I could have similarly enjoyable day beside the Trent barbelling on my own.

 

At the end of the day its each to their own and this is no way a criticism of those who take a particular angling path. The point I'm trying to make is that for many, the essence of fishing I think is missing. Think Passion for Angling or the Compleat Angler - I admit it, I am probably a romaticist when it comes to fishing. I like my lightweight carbon tackle but I prefer their spirit of the hobby. I just think we should stop trying too hard and return a little to what got us into fishing in the first place. We'd enjoy it a lot more.

[Anderoo]

Fish are not intelligent, but fish that get fished for and caught a few times do definitely learn by association and become harder to catch. I don't think many would dispute that.

 

As Lutra says, a blatent baited spot can turn into a big red flag over time. Similarly, a particular presentation that's worked so well in the past can become less and less effective. Fish do learn.

 

I enjoy thinking about these things Working out these little puzzles is what keeps me interested. If I feel like I've got something completely sussed, I quickly start to get bored. The puzzle here is that I'm failing to catch fish that I know are in front of me, so what is it I'm doing wrong? The rigs are working, I know the fish are feeding (albeit not particularly hard), location is right...so it must be something to do with the baiting.

[BoldBear]

Fish are not intelligent, but fish that get fished for and caught a few times do definitely learn by association and become harder to catch. I don't think many would dispute that.

 

As Lutra says, a blatent baited spot can turn into a big red flag over time. Similarly, a particular presentation that's worked so well in the past can become less and less effective. Fish do learn.

 

I enjoy thinking about these things Working out these little puzzles is what keeps me interested. If I feel like I've got something completely sussed, I quickly start to get bored. The puzzle here is that I'm failing to catch fish that I know are in front of me, so what is it I'm doing wrong? The rigs are working, I know the fish are feeding (albeit not particularly hard), location is right...so it must be something to do with the baiting.

 

On a stream in Hertfordshire that I fish for Barbel I often fish 'in between' regularly baited hotspots that everyone else fishes and the number of times this has payed off is too often to be just coincidence; especially with larger more experienced Barbel.

 

I know that fish are not inteligent by any means but I do believe that Barbel do learn by association and they can often associate an area where they have been caught quite a few times with danger.

 

The water is often very clear and I have even seen a Barbel swallow my bait when it had settled on top of a submerged lump of weed but ignored my loose baits which had settled on the riverbed below it.

Edited June 12, 2012 by BoldBear