Someone Is Listening

[JB]

Well said Jaffa.

 

Ditto.

[Guest binatone]

Again well said jaffa.

This story reminds me of the cod war, unfortunately they aren’t storeys but fact. Fortunately I was not involved but I know a few who where, one is a chap from Grimsby who has his left arm missing when a warp was chopped to remind him of it.

Another is a mate of mine who was saying to me just the other day that they where compensated only ten years ago the grand amount of £7 per wire per man that they had chopped by the Icelandic gun boats.

A small amount to be paid for an illegal act that was committed upon a man working in a legal industry besides the hardships that we all know that accurse when dealing with a one ended job regardless of the environment that you happen to be inn.

[guernseybass]

The greenpeace "action" shots of their direct action tactics really had me wincing. I've not done enough time on commercial fishing boats to speak for them ( would love to hear John and Binatones views on it) but IME, from years spent construction diving and all the joys of winches, wires under strain, , the sight of guys getting themselves between two 60ft solid objects( who were attempting to haul great lentghs of tensioned wire) just looked insanely dangerous. If they had been in any dive team I have worked with they would have been chucked off the job quicktime.The allegations that they were trying to wrap chains around the wraps, drop weights into the nets , ring true to me as well.

 

Plenty of people die or get hurt at sea as it is, without these "heroes".

 

You check out the shelter decks on those boats? You understand the reduction in visibility that it means for the skipper, when hes trying to control the hauling of the net, and then also deal with RIBs flying about, guys in the water, the safety of his own crew; its bloody easy to get injured around any of the gear on a trawler- seriously bloody injured.

 

Financially it can not have been too funny for one small pair team to be picked upon just because it was easy, cheap and convinient too.

 

They only earn from what they catch. Have you really thought through the effect on the 8/10 crew involved? Guys doing something that is perfectly legal under UK law?

 

Im sure you did your spotting with the best possible motives as you saw them. Consider this though:

 

If someone had been killed or seriously hurt out there where would that leave you? IMHO, and only based on Scots law, if these events had occured off the east of Scotland it would be a very fine line between what greenpeace did and the common law crime of Malicious mischief (not as "quaint" as it sounds; its common law ). You, as a self confessed "spotter" leave yourself wide open to also being charged.

 

I have no idea if the English law has something similar, and given the happy fact that no one got hurt this time, its mostly irrelevent, unless that team (would be highly unlike any fishermen i've heard of) pursused a civil action for loss of earnings.

 

The benefit to RSA's from all this gangster activity? Has one single thing from that whole sorry episode helped the case of RSA'a as they now have to deal with commercials and the goverment on the BMP?

 

Why on earth would most commercials even give you the time of day, let alone trust you?

 

Jaffa,

 

As i said i judge GP on a case by case basis. In this case i would not and do not condone putting peoples lives at risk. I agree with most of their aims but not neccesarily their methods - you are a commercial fisherman aren't you - so do you agree with everything commercial fisherman do, do you ? like your 'colleagues ' in Shetland on the other thread ? I would hope not although i note you've all gone very quiet on that one ! not a condemnation in sight huh ?

 

The fact that it perfectly legal, accentuates the need for people do do something about it. Just because its legal doesn't mean it is right or equitable.

 

I also note your comment about the financial hardships for the crew ! - so what about the impacts on ceteceans, bass stocks, other by catch and the livelihoods of other local commercial fisherman using more traditional methods inshore ? your logic seems to be if its legal and i can make money from it, bugger everyone and everything else, including the future.

 

and that 'small scottish pair' you refer to have been outside our waters in the past year taking the equivalent of our entire annual landings in a matter of a couple of weeks before moving on elsewhere. Hence our spotting for them and french teams - incidentally with the co-operation of local commercial fisherman.

 

I'm interested so please tell me why should the profits of one company and 8/10 fisherman take away the livelihoods of 100's of CI families ?

 

As long as you continue to be primarily motivated by money and self interest at all costs to others then you have no right to be trusted by anglers, the British people or its Government either. If the UK fleet are unable to self regulate or show restraint like other countries fleets do, and prove it then naturally you must be restrained to protect the interests of everyone.

 

In no other area would a government let a single sector exploit an essentially free natural resource unchecked and unregulated - farmers and water companies to name but two face heavy scrutiny, so why shouldn't commercial sea fishers ? due to the problems of the past it is understandable that Government and the RSA lobby feel that a rebalance is desirable to safeguard stocks. And due to those problems, including shetland again for example, if anything the burden of proof and trust is on you rather than us.

 

The BMP is a first small step in that rebalance and to making sure our fisheries are managed sensibly for the long term benefit of all rather than just those with the capital to make a fast buck, as in the case of the pair trawler operators.

 

GB

[JB]

If the UK fleet are unable to self regulate or show restraint like other countries fleets do, and prove it

GB

 

I am unaware of this, please give me some examples.

 

JB

[guernseybass]

I am unaware of this, please give me some examples.

 

JB

 

Guernsey for one.

 

other areas that have some form of self regulation or have shown organised restraint are the Faroes, Norway, The Falklands, many parts of the NE US (Maine for example), Guam, Japan and New Zealand.

 

 

GB

[JB]

Guernsey for one.

 

other areas that have some form of self regulation or have shown organised restraint are the Faroes, Norway, The Falklands, many parts of the NE US (Maine for example), Guam, Japan and New Zealand.

GB

 

Hi GB,

You will have to excuse my ignorance of commercial fishing in Guernsey. However, surely the other countries you mentioned are government regulated. They also have governments who see the value of both RSA and commercial fishing. Clearly, the UK government does not have the same values. Otherwise, why are we in the CFP?

 

Hopefully I am wrong, but I see our government’s tolerance of RSA as merely a vote catcher and potential source of income.

 

JB

[wurzel]

Quote

The BMP is a first small step in that rebalance and to making sure our fisheries are managed sensibly for the long term benefit of all rather than just those with the capital to make a fast buck, as in the case of the pair trawler operators.

 

The pair trawlers have been fishing for bass for about 25 years now. Is that your idea of a fast buck ?

[sam-cox]

No its not my idea of a fast buck, it pure bloddy GREED MAN!

[Jaffa]

Hi GB, im not a commercial fishermen, barring a few months as a scallop diver. I did do a few years with the DAFS fishery office (Scotlands old version of MAFF) way back in the 1980's, and have been at sea on various fishing boats, both out of interest, and in connection with diving work. Fwiw I was one of a small (usually 4 man) teams that built the "Altaires pier" at Collafirth in Shetland.

 

As i said i judge GP on a case by case basis. In this case i would not and do not condone putting peoples lives at risk. I agree with most of their aims but not neccesarily their methods - you are a commercial fisherman aren't you - so do you agree with everything commercial fisherman do, do you ? like your 'colleagues ' in Shetland on the other thread ? I would hope not although i note you've all gone very quiet on that one ! not a condemnation in sight huh ?

I was a member of Greenpeace (just the fee paying type, rather than an active member) many years ago GB and to be honest I find it very hard to work out just what their aims, other than self publicity and the continued existence of Greenpeace, are. I moved to Shetland for many years, and utterly changed my mind about organisations like Greenpeace as being any kind of force for good.

 

Im glad to hear you don't think protest should go so far as to put peoples lives at risk but given that's exactly what did happen and many on this board were all for it at the time. It would be nice to think some might rethink now.

 

No, i don't agree with a hell of a lot that has happened with commercial fishing, and nor ime do many commercial fishermen. Fwiw I did strongly condemn what John Peter (Altaires Skipper) did when the subject first arose on these forums. I have my own, rather strong, opinions on his actions and their effect on the people in a place I care a lot about, but don't expect me to join that lynch mob in that other thread. I can't say why the other, for want of a better description for such a diverse range of people, "pro commercials", chose not to post there.

 

The fact that it perfectly legal, accentuates the need for people do do something about it. Just because its legal doesn't mean it is right or equitable.

 

mmmm. That's your opinion and I have no argument with you, or anyone else choosing to try and do something about it by.

 

I also note your comment about the financial hardships for the crew ! - so what about the impacts on cetaceans, bass stocks, other by catch and the livelihoods of other local commercial fisherman using more traditional methods inshore ? your logic seems to be if its legal and i can make money from it, bugger everyone and everything else, including the future.

That's putting rather a lot onto the heads of a very few hard-working guys surely? These 8/10 guys should just take all the wrath for the complicated issues of cetacean by catch and the future of the bass? This despite the fact, that as I understand it, they were actively involved in a scientific project to find ways to reduce cetacean by catch... I have yet to see any evidence these boats are having an effect on cetacean populations at all.

 

and that 'small scottish pair' you refer to have been outside our waters in the past year taking the equivalent of our entire annual landings in a matter of a couple of weeks before moving on elsewhere. Hence our spotting for them and french teams - incidentally with the co-operation of local commercial fisherman.

 

Well, I agree that commercial fishermen are a diverse group and, far from the homogeneous entity they are often portrayed as on these boards. Their interests vary with location, method and history. If you and your local guys think theirs activities are hurting your interests then lobby, protest, do anything legal you want to put your point across. I have no beef with that at all. By "taking the equivalent of our entire annual landings in a matter of a couple of weeks before moving on elsewhere" , do you mean that they took the equivalent of anglers landings or all local landings, including the local inshore boats?

 

I'm interested so please tell me why should the profits of one company and 8/10 fisherman take away the livelihoods of 100's of CI families ?

Have any CI familes lost their livelihood because of that team then?

 

As long as you continue to be primarily motivated by money and self interest at all costs to others then you have no right to be trusted by anglers, the British people or its Government either. If the UK fleet are unable to self regulate or show restraint like other countries fleets do, and prove it then naturally you must be restrained to protect the interests of everyone.

 

This just non commercial fishing me? . Seriously though, which bit of that diverse industry do you mean? From what I can see the countries with the best run fisheries are those where its of serious economic worth and the industry themselves are heavily involved any regulation. Within the UK it looks like fishing dependant Shetland is being the most innovative and serious about their fish stocks. (This is where 10 idiots jump in and point at the Altaire) Maybe in your part of the UK it would be a good thing if travelling Scots and French boats were excluded; I would proberly agree with you. It s not the same everywhere though.

 

 

In no other area would a government let a single sector exploit an essentially free natural resource unchecked and unregulated - farmers and water companies to name but two face heavy scrutiny, so why shouldn't commercial sea fishers ? due to the problems of the past it is understandable that Government and the RSA lobby feel that a rebalance is desirable to safeguard stocks. And due to those problems, including Shetland again for example, if anything the burden of proof and trust is on you rather than us.

IMHO the "essentially free resource" has, thanks to government incompetence been turned into a commodity that we are in danger of losing any control over. Try and find out who owns what quota of this resource "we all own" if you want to get really worried for the future. The Shetlanders recently had to call on the Scottish executive to get a protection vessel to pay some attention to their area (that's things been done the right way round imho; i doubt that overall compliance will be a problem; amazing how well behaved "commercials" can be when they understand why something is being done and see the sense of it. That's a lot of "community policemen" and "spotters" for free).

 

Go track down the story on that one and where the money causing the problem was coming from; it might set you thinking along a different track. If the CI wants a future it should get in touch with fisheries savvy people in Shetland ASAP imho . Seriously GB, think about it.

 

The BMP is a first small step in that rebalance and to making sure our fisheries are managed sensibly for the long term benefit of all rather than just those with the capital to make a fast buck, as in the case of the pair trawler operators.

 

Maybe. To much dodging of pretty important issues atm imho though. In a way its unfair to have a go at the BMP after all thats gone b4 in fisheries "management", and given the obvious thought and craft that has gone into it , but its a huge step in a different direction, and if you alienate the commercials and are not prepared to take their experience and views on board I believe (and i could be totally wrong) it might bring more problems than it solves.

 

I've been out of any involvement with commercial fishing for many years now GB, and , uphere at least, it appears to have changed a great deal. Theres very little left locally, the published accounts of landings into the major ports like Aberdeen and Peterhead are but a fraction of what they were in the 80's, and as i understand it 40% of the fleet is gone. Much of the rest are only allowed to work so many days a month as I understand it. From the grapevine I hear fuel prices are hurting the trawlers in a serious way and many are looking to quit or adopt more fuel efficient methods. Things are changing fast and it has little to do with government plans and schemes to save stocks. Its a funny old world

 

Thats enough "jaw flapping " from me

 

Chris.

[spanner]

A lot would grow old and die. Not much use to any body.

 

Actually a healthy and thriving ecosytem is very valuable to all of us....its the most valuable thing on this planet. I'm not having a go at you wurzel, but I hate to see the environment considered purely from the perspective of its monetary value. Makes you sound like George Dubya.........

 

Maybe you meant to say "Not worth many ££££ to any body" which is entirely different. And wrong as well. It might not be worth any ££ to some, i.e. conmmercials, but fish growing old and dying can still be worth an awful lot to RSA and the economy as a whole, just not your pocket......unless you move into chartering