Leisure Fishing in Whitby - As important to the towns economyas commercial fishing.

[Steve Coppolo]

In reply to my question on the other thread you said “There probably won't be great numbers of them, but there will be some. Then they will have to wait for 12 to 18 months for the 2002 year class to reach 45cm.”

 

So these Commercials that have to wait 12 to 18 months will have to make a living one way or another. There only options are to continue fishing for bass, landing fewer fish and making less money or to diversify to other species until sufficient Bass have reached 45cm to ensure them their living from only targeting Bass. Given human nature and Commercials logic, the first option will be a non starter, so the commercials will diversify to the other species that they can catch. This added pressure with mean even fewer fish of other species around for those that are not interested in Bass.. Simple

 

What are these other species that they are going to turn to? And will 12 to 18 months effort going to make that much difference to them, whatever they are?

 

 

Thankfully none, but we still have the same commercials that aint gonna sit back and wait for a stock to reach min landing size, without targeting other species as a stop gap to keep an income.

 

Don't understand that bit. If the commercials in your area don't target bass, they won't have to sit back and wait for bass to reach the new MLS.

 

Probably none, but since the original thread has been hijacked by the BMP it’s not really relevant anymore.

 

Fair enough, see my reply to Brain's post.

 

 

I don’t doubt that they do, it would be pretty pointless fishing in areas where there aren’t any. The issue is with the size of the fish, you already stated “There probably won't be great numbers of them” in reference to 45cm and above fish.. so just what are these netters going to catch?

 

They'll catch the bass that are 45cm and over that would have been in the fishery anyway. Then it'll involve a wait until the 2002 year class catch up. Don't forget your point was that they would start targetting other fish and therefore making things harder for anglers, but as have agreed, bass netters operate in areas where anglers fish for bass so these very bass anglers will actually benefit. If there aren't any bass, or bass netters, in a particular area it'll be business as usual and the BMP won't have any ill effect.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why cant they? They only have to supplement their income from what sizable Bass are available and so long as there is quote available for that species they can land them. They certainly aint just going to pack up and stop fishing.

 

If a stock is already depleted, that means there are no more fish, or very few fish, of that stock left to catch. I can't see how an already depleted stock can be further exploited.

 

Come on Steve of course it will, you can’t remove a percentage of fish from an area without it affecting the numbers of fish available to anglers.

 

See above. If the stock is already depleted, it doesn't get much worse than that.

I don’t dislike Bass Steve, it’s the better than everyone else attitude of certain Bass anglers I dislike.

 

Fair enough.

 

As for supporting the BMP, I’m sorry from what I have seen so far is a plan that will benefit the one species but other species will have to suffer for it, albeit short term. In my eyes that’s a high price to pay for improving sport for Sea Anglers.

 

I still don't see how other species will suffer, but everyone is entitled to express their own theory. I was trying to address some of the concerns you had and hope that I've managed to ease your mind on at least some of the points. As I said, the alternative is to sit back, do nothing and let things carry on as they are. Great if you're happy with the current situation. Personally, I'm far from happy with it.

 

if you feel the need to repy to my post, can we start another thread and let this one get back on topic?

 

I did want to reply to further address your concerns, but I didn't think it was worth starting another thread. If this is going to develop maybe we should start another thread, but I think we've gone full circle now.

[wurzel]

Hello Steve

 

Davey does have a valid point.

 

In this area the only alternative to take up the slack in earnings are skate and if our Australian friend turns up again smoothhound and tope.

 

 

Hello Stavey

 

iain.glasgow@mfa.gsi.gov.uk when you get fed up with him try john.winerton@mfa.gsi.gov.uk he's a real gem.

Good luck.

[Davy Holt]

Hello Steve

 

Davey does have a valid point.

 

In this area the only alternative to take up the slack in earnings are skate and if our Australian friend turns up again smoothhound and tope.

 

Thank you Wurzel.. I was beginning to think it was only me that had thought about the price we will be paying for the larger Bass

[wurzel]

I 'll be alright though Stavey's going to fix it so as I can fish for soles full time instead.

[Leon Roskilly]

Thank you Wurzel.. I was beginning to think it was only me that had thought about the price we will be paying for the larger Bass

 

As Wurzel points out, they don't have a realistic alternative to turn to to make up their loss of income.

 

And it's not only Wurzel.

 

Read most of the letters and articles in Fishing News, and overhear the 'conversations' I've had with fishermen and their representatives.

 

No one is saying 'We will simply move onto another species' to make up the slack in our earnings for a little while.

 

The talk is all along the lines that 'This will be the nail that puts us in our coffin'; 'Unless we are allowed to continue to target immature bass, we will go out of business'; 'We will need to be compensated, both for our loss of earnings and for having to replace our gear'; 'They will have to increase the quota on sole, otherwise we won't survive'.

 

So it seems from what the commercials are saying, that there is no alternative open to them if they are no longer allowed to target immature baby bass.

 

Now to get some perspective on this, DEFRA statistics value the entire landings of the UK fleet, both in the UK and in foreign ports at £512 million.

 

Of that bass makes up just £3.2million

 

'But what about the undeclared earnings of the under 10metre fleet, and er, the bass sold at the back door?'

 

Oh! 'OK', says the bass mls consultation team, 'let's make that £7.5million'

 

Now, within that 3.2.... er, 7.5million are the landings from the UK fisheries that target spawning congregations. By definition, all of those fish are over 45cms, so as are most of the fish targeted by the liners in the South West.

 

Wurzel what about you? How many of yours are over 45 cm now?

 

 

So, a good proportion of that £7.5million are already over 45cm.

 

And bass fishermen will adapt so that they now learn how to target those bigger fish (and I suspect that this is something that worries Wurzel as they move in on his niche)

 

(The people who are really going to suffer are those that set nets close inshore, in the shallow estuaries, perhaps raiding the nurseries, many of them so called 'part-timers' and unlicensed netsmen, taking Wurzel's fish before they grow big enough to move out towards his area.)

 

So, let's say for a while, whilst those 36cm fish grow another 9 centimetrs (some say in as little as 12-18 months), the catching sector has to make up maybe £3 million by moving onto other species

 

That hardly figures in the bigger scheme of things.

 

But thereafter, we are in a much better position, the 36cm bass are now at 45cm with other year groups coming on.

 

A 36cm bass at 1lb is now worth double at 45cm 2lb (I'm assuming that availability has completely wiped out the premium on larger fish! - Sorry Wurzel)

 

Less bass have to be caught for the same income, or maybe the same number of bass are caught but pressure is reduced on other species, not just for 12-18 months, but permanently (Assuming that the catching sector is happy to maintain current income levels and display nothing of that which some label 'greed')

 

 

The old saying is that 'you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs'

 

 

There will be downsides to the BMP, and those likely to suffer those downsides are going to make the most they can of that, as will those who love to find and amplify the negative aspects of any potential change.

 

But, overall, and in the longer term, I firmly believe that the BMP is going to be good for everyone, particularly anglers and those who earn their livelihoods servicing the needs of anglers, and those looking for future investment and business opportunities.

 

Tight Lines - leon

Edited January 8, 2006 by Leon Roskilly

[Davy Holt]

The old saying is that 'you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs'

 

Very true, but why should the stocks other species that are in just as bad or worse a condition be made to suffer anymore than they already have, just to make an improvement on one species.

 

Is it now becoming the case that Bass have more right to swim the same waters than any other species???

[Steve Coppolo]

Very true, but why should the stocks other species that are in just as bad or worse a condition be made to suffer anymore than they already have, just to make an improvement on one species.

 

Is it now becoming the case that Bass have more right to swim the same waters than any other species???

 

Bass are the U.K's premier sportsfish. They are available for almost everyone to catch, ie, beach anglers, inshore dinghy anglers, offshore charter boat anglers, pier angler. OAP's, children and disabled anglers can all go bass fishing with some success because the species is so widely available. They can be caught by a very wide variety of methods. Bass can now be caught throughout most of the U.K and for most months in a year This is why I think bass have been singled out.

 

Plus the fact that it was bass anglers who have done most of the legwork over the last 30 years to get something positive done for recreational sea angling. Obviously there will always be some who aren't happy, but as they say, you can't please all the people all the time. Anyway, it hasn't been implemented yet! We might end up with egg all over our faces. I'll believe it when I see it with my own eyes, until then I'm taking the cautious approach.

[Leon Roskilly]

Is it now becoming the case that Bass have more right to swim the same waters than any other species???

 

 

Maybe a short term temporary displacement of effort for a much bigger future gain that will benefit not just bass but other species.

 

As bass become more plentiful and more valuable, there will be less need to exploit other species so hard.

 

A bigger mesh size to complement the new mls will immediately benefit other species taken as bycatch when bass nets are set, eg mullet.

 

A succesful implementation of the bmp, bringing benefits both to the RSA and catching sector will pave the way for other such measures for other species important to RSA, (but possibly of less imporatance than bass to the catching sector; tope, wrasse, flounder, mullet, conger etc)

 

Think beyond today's problems, beyond tomorrow's promise to something better ahead.

 

Or keep going as we are now.

 

It would have been nice to have started with common skate!

 

 

Tight Lines - leon

Edited January 8, 2006 by Leon Roskilly

[wurzel]

Hello Leon

Another good post you are getting well practiced .

 

You are good at painting the whole picture with your catch value figures, fishermen are all different it's like lots of different pictures, the neche thing I keep mentioning.

The BMP will be like the domino effect for a while, after a bit when the dust setles there will be losers and winners, I can under stand the feelings of the commercial losers were as the anglers don't give a damn.

The smaller UK bass trawlers for example probably catch under 45cm bass because they have not enough power to catch bigger fish, so they turn to gill netting, much more effective at catching larger bass as well as most other fish. If they can't aford to change, at a cost of around £5000 it's quite likley, they will perhaps be forced to sell up, just because of anglers, the scientists say they are fishing sustainable. Do you expect them to say " ho dear never mind let the poor anglers have it thier way, they need it more than I do " ?

as you say

Quote

The talk is all along the lines that 'This will be the nail that puts us in our coffin'; 'Unless we are allowed to continue to target immature bass, we will go out of business'; 'We will need to be compensated, both for our loss of earnings and for having to replace our gear'; 'They will have to increase the quota on sole, otherwise we won't survive'.

 

Thats no different than anglers moaning that there is no bigger fish to catch, when in reality anglers are catching loads of larger fish.

 

 

 

If the BMP was only about raising the MLS and mesh sizes it might not be so bad, what about all the other stuff tied in with it, carcasse tags and restricted amounts, 1 mile from the shore and bass intitlement licences, give you an inch and you want a mile.

 

I just thought of another scenario.

If the sea inshore is going to be full of 45cm bass why should I bother to steam 3 hours off shore, I 'll fill my boots ten minuets from the marina.

[Jaffa]

As Wurzel points out, they don't have a realistic alternative to turn to to make up their loss of income.

 

And it's not only Wurzel.

 

Read most of the letters and articles in Fishing News, and overhear the 'conversations' I've had with fishermen and their representatives.

 

No one is saying 'We will simply move onto another species' to make up the slack in our earnings for a little while.

 

The talk is all along the lines that 'This will be the nail that puts us in our coffin'; 'Unless we are allowed to continue to target immature bass, we will go out of business'; 'We will need to be compensated, both for our loss of earnings and for having to replace our gear'; 'They will have to increase the quota on sole, otherwise we won't survive'.

 

So it seems from what the commercials are saying, that there is no alternative open to them if they are no longer allowed to target immature baby bass.

 

Now to get some perspective on this, DEFRA statistics value the entire landings of the UK fleet, both in the UK and in foreign ports at £512 million.

 

Of that bass makes up just £3.2million

 

'But what about the undeclared earnings of the under 10metre fleet, and er, the bass sold at the back door?'

 

Oh! 'OK', says the bass mls consultation team, 'let's make that £7.5million'

 

Now, within that 3.2.... er, 7.5million are the landings from the UK fisheries that target spawning congregations. By definition, all of those fish are over 45cms, so as are most of the fish targeted by the liners in the South West.

 

Wurzel what about you? How many of yours are over 45 cm now?

So, a good proportion of that £7.5million are already over 45cm.

 

And bass fishermen will adapt so that they now learn how to target those bigger fish (and I suspect that this is something that worries Wurzel as they move in on his niche)

 

(The people who are really going to suffer are those that set nets close inshore, in the shallow estuaries, perhaps raiding the nurseries, many of them so called 'part-timers' and unlicensed netsmen, taking Wurzel's fish before they grow big enough to move out towards his area.)

 

So, let's say for a while, whilst those 36cm fish grow another 9 centimetrs (some say in as little as 12-18 months), the catching sector has to make up maybe £3 million by moving onto other species

 

That hardly figures in the bigger scheme of things.

 

But thereafter, we are in a much better position, the 36cm bass are now at 45cm with other year groups coming on.

 

A 36cm bass at 1lb is now worth double at 45cm 2lb (I'm assuming that availability has completely wiped out the premium on larger fish! - Sorry Wurzel)

 

Less bass have to be caught for the same income, or maybe the same number of bass are caught but pressure is reduced on other species, not just for 12-18 months, but permanently (Assuming that the catching sector is happy to maintain current income levels and display nothing of that which some label 'greed')

The old saying is that 'you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs'

There will be downsides to the BMP, and those likely to suffer those downsides are going to make the most they can of that, as will those who love to find and amplify the negative aspects of any potential change.

 

But, overall, and in the longer term, I firmly believe that the BMP is going to be good for everyone, particularly anglers and those who earn their livelihoods servicing the needs of anglers, and those looking for future investment and business opportunities.

 

Tight Lines - leon

 

 

Feel the hate and certainty