Is it the end for charter skippers and fishing clubs? No time to bury your heads

[Steve Coppolo]

Do those countries have

1. A catch now pay later charter fleet wanting to take every last fish for their own.
   
2. A Department like DEFRA willing to let no 1 happen
   
3. A Legal system like ours where if you get caught breaking the rules you get a slap on the wrist and a fine so small you are left well in pocket from your illegal activities.
   

You say Licences and bag limits are a definate that may well be the case but I hate the way this has been done. Its slid through the back door whilst everyone else is looking out the front. The whole thing stinks and I am not willing to accept this pile of shite without a fight. There is not 1 incentive for people in my area to sign up to this not 1. Our accpetance of a licence and bag limits should only come about when that shower in Londen show us they mean business and not untill.

 

Hi adambroadley I see your name at the bottom of the screen there

 

No Glenn, they aren't anything like what we have here. That's not to say that they weren't at one time though.

 

Licences are coming, but I can't see how they are being slid in through the back door. We are talking about them now, and have been for some time. I can't see them coming in the next few years, but they will come in. What we have to do is to make sure we get something worthwhile in return. I agree with you on everything you say. I won't accept a licence without a fight either, but my fight will be for better fishing not just opposition to the licence. I'd rather have a licence and good fishing than no licence and crap fishing.

 

As for charter skippers, have a look at this british charter skipper who's done very nicely out of licences and bag limits. Just look at those prices!!!!!

 

home and away

Edited May 21, 2006 by Steve Coppolo

[glennk]

But once again sam you speak for what you know. I have said this time and again in this place not everywhere is the same, and what you experience in the south is not what we experience here. It might be great news for the charter fleet in your neck of the woods. Forgive me if I'm wrong sam But in the Thames (it is the thames where you live?) you have tope ? bass ? Huss ? and species ive not even heared of. Two of those species are almost untoched by the commeercail fleet and tope will no doubt be on their way to being a species protected from commercial exploitation, and if things go right for you the bass might get left alone too. People will pay a skipper to take them out to catch a tope than can possibly be over 50 pounds, you put it back and catch it again next year when its 55 pound. I can see the sense in that and that is what steve's florida theory is based on. On that you can build a business and even I would pay money for that experience.

Here we have cod, to the best of my knowledge 1 tope was landing on a charter last year and no bass. If you catch a cod and put it back it doesnt become 5 pound heavier for you to catch it next year, it swims into Mr Lockers pair trawler and is no more. We have no incentive to sign up to this and havent even been given the opportunity to have a say on the matter.

[wurzel]

Hello Steve

 

Quote

IF they are managed properly. The only problem I can see with it happening over here is the incompetence and dishonesty of our politicians.

 

 

It's not the politicians, they are only puppets worked by the quangos with in DEFRA, they are the ones rushing around trying to justify their inflated wage packets, every initiative or consultation they come up with is designed to create as much work as possible for the different departments with in DEFRA, it has nothing what so ever to do with conservation of fish, only the conservation of cival servants.

[Steve Coppolo]

Hello Steve

 

Quote

IF they are managed properly. The only problem I can see with it happening over here is the incompetence and dishonesty of our politicians.

It's not the politicians, they are only puppets worked by the quangos with in DEFRA, they are the ones rushing around trying to justify their inflated wage packets, every initiative or consultation they come up with is designed to create as much work as possible for the different departments with in DEFRA, it has nothing what so ever to do with conservation of fish, only the conservation of cival servants.

 

 

Very true, it's the civil servants who really run the country. Trouble is, the politicians are scared to change the way they do things in case it makes them unpopular.

 

Politicians and civil servants don't care about our fishing, they don't care about quotas, size limits, stock levels, etc. All they care about is their cushy, well paid jobs. As long as they are in their own comfort zone they are happy to let things trundle along as they are. To stand any chance of changing things we have to threaten that comfort zone to make them sit up and take notice.

 

As it's all about winning votes and keeping their nests feathered, we really should start thinking about using our votes to get what we want instead of wasting them. We also need to expose them and their incompetence at every given opportunity.

[Leon Roskilly]

What I find is amazing is that DEFRA say that they are bringing in legislation to introduce bag limits, and suddenly everyone seems to think that they know exactly what that is going to mean.

 

Consider this.

 

Bag limits only for certain species.

 

Bag limits only for certain areas.

 

Some species it might be 2 fish, some it might be 20 fish.

 

It might be 2 fish of a certain kind for a beach angler per day, but more for a charter boat angler (to protect the charter boat business)

 

It might be 7.5kg + one large fish of any weight.

 

None of this is cut and dried, but needs negotiation by a limited number of people who have a good grasp of all of the issues and strong negotiating skills.

 

As the commercials will tell you, headlines 'Totally Unacceptable!' will be almost meaningless, as will be complaining by individual anglers or local groups.

 

It needs people who know the right people to talk to, what to say, and how to say it.

 

People who know who the decision makers are, and who are the influencers, who has lines of communication to the real movers.

 

Effective negotiation is much more than simply saying 'No' to whatever you don't like.

 

It means having the demonstrable strength to be able to say 'NO!' (like being able to march 10,000 anglers into parliament square), and knowing when to use that strength, and when to show it.

 

It means instead of saying 'No' yourself, knowing how to get the fellow across the table to come to that conclusion seemingly on their own.

 

It means knowing what you have to negotiate with and when to show or hide your hand.

 

You can bet your life that all of the senior and middle level civil servants who angling representatives meet have been trained in negotiating skills, and are used to dealing with people similarly trained in negotiation and lobbying.

 

To get the best deal possible, angling needs to be able to field high calibre people similarly trained and with the right experience, otherwise, as often happens, they come out of meetings knowing that they have been walked over.

 

But angling organisations can only deliver what anglers need, if they have a level of support, both financially and by involvement, much greater than exists now, from anglers, clubs, the tackle trade and the angling press.

 

The raw material is there to make the angling lobby one of the most powerful in the UK, able to dictate the terms that will be acceptable.

 

Right now, without the support behind them, they and us as anglers will be dictated to, however much insignificant noise we can muster right now.

 

There are some pretty important issues coming our way, and some fights that must be won.

 

If we wan't to be in with a chance, things really have to change.

 

But we are running out of time.

Edited May 21, 2006 by Leon Roskilly

[sam-cox]

But once again sam you speak for what you know. I have said this time and again in this place not everywhere is the same, and what you experience in the south is not what we experience here. It might be great news for the charter fleet in your neck of the woods. Forgive me if I'm wrong sam But in the Thames (it is the thames where you live?) you have tope ? bass ? Huss ? and species ive not even heared of. Two of those species are almost untoched by the commeercail fleet and tope will no doubt be on their way to being a species protected from commercial exploitation, and if things go right for you the bass might get left alone too. People will pay a skipper to take them out to catch a tope than can possibly be over 50 pounds, you put it back and catch it again next year when its 55 pound. I can see the sense in that and that is what steve's florida theory is based on. On that you can build a business and even I would pay money for that experience.

Here we have cod, to the best of my knowledge 1 tope was landing on a charter last year and no bass. If you catch a cod and put it back it doesnt become 5 pound heavier for you to catch it next year, it swims into Mr Lockers pair trawler and is no more. We have no incentive to sign up to this and havent even been given the opportunity to have a say on the matter.

 

 

Yes there may be differences from area to area thats why this needs discussing with DEFRA. If you feel strongly that bag limits are not needed in your area and that the fishery as it is is managing ok thank you very much then you and anyone else like you needs to be talking to DEFRA and showing them your evidence.

Pitty much as Leons post lays out.

Edited May 21, 2006 by sam-cox

[Ian Burrett]

From Glen

Here we have cod, to the best of my knowledge 1 tope was landing on a charter last year and no bass. If you catch a cod and put it back it doesnt become 5 pound heavier for you to catch it next year, it swims into Mr Lockers pair trawler and is no more. We have no incentive to sign up to this and havent even been given the opportunity to have a say on the matter.

 

If there ws one tope there will be more. Who actually fished for them? I have seen commercial landings at Blythe and Edinburgh. Theres plenty at Brid. so their must be a fair few at some time of the year.

 

The Doc reported commercial pair trawlers mopping up Bass by the box load of your coast so they must be there also. there are fefinatley rays and flatties there. You just need to get rid of your codhead for a while.

 

As for the licenses this isn't a done deal but something that has been mentioned for the future. Everyone will be able to have their say

Edited May 21, 2006 by Ian Burrett

[JRT]

Whats wrong with bag limits JRT?? More ridiculous beurocracy ,Impossible to enforce without having shifts of saddos stood on the quayside counting fish. It would put a hell of a lot of anglers off both the serious and the occasional this would have a knock-on impact to the local economy a big one at that in certain ports.I could go on but dont have the time.

Anyway my friend if you just take time to think you can soon work out that charter fishing from boats has NO IMPACT WHATSOEVER on fish stocks. Fish are constantly moving around often over great distances ,hunting and being hunted the angler is just one very,very small part of the equation (insignificant).

I know a couple of (very good) anglers who have been trying to fill their freezers its cost them thousands over the years and the freezers have never been any where near half full But I can assure you that every fish they caught within the appropiate size was carefully filleted and stored away to give the family many meals-no waste.

Can I ask you JRT should these guys have gone out and bought this fish from the supermarket where it would have been dragged up from a decimated seabed along with by-catch and discards by the thousand?

 

It works in other parts of the world so why not here? Just because the UK is so inept in policing it's fisheries doesn't make sensible bag limits a bad idea. We should have a dedicated coastguard service like the US do. Bag limits should be set based on species and time of year. I'm not against charters but I am against the inresponsible killing of fish that probably get fed to the cat. Just look at the mackeral frenzy around our coast every year. As a skipper I would have thought you would be actively promoting conservation as you'll have even less customers when the fish run out!

 

JRT

[glennk]

You say it isnt a done deal Ian. I have a little less trust in DEFRA than most. Leon far too many if's and buts in there. The people around here deserve to know exactly what is going on. From what Ive read so far I'm not happy with the "high calibre people" representing us. It is clear from the posts on here there are far too many people know nothing at all about our neck of the woods who are out to feather their own nests at our expense.

[Ian Burrett]

You say it isnt a done deal Ian. I have a little less trust in DEFRA than most. Leon far too many if's and buts in there. The people around here deserve to know exactly what is going on. From what Ive read so far I'm not happy with the "high calibre people" representing us. It is clear from the posts on here there are far too many people know nothing at all about our neck of the woods who are out to feather their own nests at our expense.

 

Hi Glen

Name and shame then