Braid. Is it just me that hates the stuff?

[Guest NickInTheNorth]

whatever

[Guest jay_con]

Im pretty certain that the situation is different in different water depths, types of ground on the bottom etc, types of species targeted.

 

Braid???? Ive used it for uptiding and see no great advantage to it. But as Diabolis says on a packed charter boat it could be most useful - Untill it tangles with that of your neighbour. Conversley I definately did as well with the braid fish wise.

 

A lot of the shore anglers here on the North East coast also use braid. A lot of these anglers are very succesfull indeed in the penn league.

[Guest NickInTheNorth]

So Steve, as I missed your point, how about explaining to me in words of one syllable what your where trying to say.

 

I thought that I had fully understood your point.

 

Perhaps you really were not trying to say that methods cannot be developed by anyone other than the person who originated them. But that is what I understood.

 

But then again we a bit stoopid up here. We still fish downtide cos it's more effective.

[Guest jay_con]

john frum:

Meanwhile my conclusion from what's been posted here is that, for casting, the problems outweigh the advantages. I doubt that my casting technique is pushing the limits so it's probably not going to help much. Might just try the fused variety someone suggested though, before I give up.

Not necasserily so, I know some fantastic fishermen/casters (Not casters as there is a difference). A lot of them use nothing but braid. A lot of the scarborough anglers, who are amongst the best in the country (sure diabolis wont argue with me there)wouldnt venture out without at least a couple of reels filled with braid in thier bags.

Ive also seen braid used very sucessfully of Bemton cliffs.

 

[Guest stevie cop]

Nick

Diabolos said that Bob was somewhat of a pioneer of uptiding. He wasn't. He invented and developed it into the most successful method of boat fishing. Perhaps I should have added, in the Thames estuary, the Bristol channel, and all the other places where it has given far better results than down tide fishing. But as we were talking about uptiding, I thought that would have been obvious. What's the point of talking about uptiding in areas where down tide fishing is most productive and therefore where uptiding isn't used? If it is used, why? I'd have thought that people would use the most effective method for their area?

 

Again, as we are talking about uptiding, I said that the method was developed after a lot of research. It was, and the drag on the mono line was all part of the method. As were the rods used, the reels prefered, (although fixed spool reels can be used, they aren't as good as multipliers because you can't feel the weight hit the bottom with a fixed spool reel), the type and size of weight, booms, snoods and hooks. The type of bite and method of connecting with the fish were unique to uptiding the way it was developed. The way it was meant to be.

 

Using braid, different weights, rods, reels, etc, change the method quite a bit.

Hence the reason why I said that the new ways can hardly be described as uptiding in it's purest form. They are adaptations and variations of the "proper" method of uptiding.

 

Take Davy Holt's and Spurhound's examples of uptiding in 300 ft of water, then saying that the tide doesn't run properly, or runs two different ways on the top and bottom. Again, just because they are casting uptide, doesn't mean they are uptiding! I know it sounds like a contradiction, but you need a good tide to create the =needed bow in the line when uptiding "proper". Can you see what I'm getting at?

 

As for fishing on board a packed charter boat, as long as all the anglers are using mono there really isn't a problem.. I've fished on charter boats with all the anglers casting and it works a treat as long as everyone understands the theory of uptiding.

 

I discussed the method at length with Bob and it would take a hell of a lot more than a few posts on a forum to explain all the where's and wherefore's of uptiding. I've got to go to work now, but I'll be glad to go more in depth another time if you feel the need.

 

I hope this has explained my comments a bit more clearly.

[Guest conger tamer]

I think this braid thread is like marmite you love it or hate it!

i love it for spinning and deep water but mono is still king, sorry (co-polymer)

[Guest jay_con]

"Nick

Diabolos said that Bob was somewhat of a pioneer of uptiding. He wasn't. He invented and developed it into the most successful method of boat fishing. Perhaps I should have added, in the Thames estuary, the Bristol channel, and all the other places where it has given far better results than down tide fishing. But as we were talking about uptiding, I thought that would have been obvious. What's the point of talking about uptiding in areas where down tide fishing is most productive and therefore where uptiding isn't used? If it is used, why? I'd have thought that people would use the most effective method for their area?"

 

Seems to be that off Whitby different methods work at different tide stages. When the tide is strongest I fish uptide when its not at full flow I prefer down. Only trouble with uptiding is that over such rocky kelpy ground the fish often snag you up as they move downtide.

[Diabolos]

Hi Steve

 

I think you deserve great credit for sticking up for those that you believe heralded the revolution in UK boat fishing, and as far as I am concerned, you are certainly entitled to you your opinions…you will get nothing but respect from me on that score. I will even concur with you to a point. And before going any deeper into this, please understand that any statement made was no dig at those you leap to defend.

 

Now a message to both Summer and yourself…uptiding is most definitely not the most successful method of boat fishing and it never will be – fact. Another fact: It is a good and very successful method for certain species, in certain areas, in certain circumstances, but the bigger picture is it accounts for perhaps 5% of boat catches countywide.

 

Again I will state that I have the utmost respect for Bob Cox and John Rawle for that matter, among many forward-thinking boat anglers/skippers of their era like Geordie Dickinson, but these guys DID NOT invent the so-called uptide method. As previously alluded, the method was developed in Dutch and Belgian waters many years before it was ever publicised in the UK angling press. Try telling anglers from these countries that our guys invented the method and the collective laughter you have you running off in horrible embarrassment.

 

Now let me ask you a question: What is uptiding and what is boat-casting? Be careful how you answer because no-one in England invented the method of using a long rod to cast a wired lead away from an anchored boat into the path of passing fish.

 

Steve, who told you can’t feel the weight hit bottom when using a fixed spool? Come on mate that just isn’t true. If it was I’d have slung my big fixed spools over the side long ago, as I wouldn’t be able to make the method count as I like to think that I regularly manage to.

 

Steve it is correct to say that it would take reams of pages to explain the ins and outs of the various uptide methods, and I am prepared to enter into discussing those. However, I do it just about every month in various quarters and can see no benefit in things spiralling into a mish-mashy argument. If you want to debate matters than I will deal only in facts rather than fiction.

 

As for uptiding in its purest form? That sounds like a ‘fend off’ for failure to understand the simplicity of the method, and the various applicable guises. And make no mistake, new or old the principles remain, with simplicity at the very heart of this method of fishing.

 

Remember the original Daiwa Sea Hunter Uptide rods, and the 1986 Daiwa backed video, ‘Offshore Boat Fishing with Bob Cox’? I do, very well, and if Bob Cox gave us anything, it was concise access to an embryonic UK method and the rods with which to best exploit it. I thank him for this because he certainly greatly influenced the way I fish when the winning requirement is to switch from downtiding etc. I have also been known to fight his corner when stalwart downtiders-at-all-costs have sought to take the p**s out of his efforts and endeavours which did much to advance UK boat angling.

 

One day it would be good to go fishing with Bob and bat thoughts and ideas back and forth re the state of uptide play today etc…that I think, would be a feature that many people would like to read, and one that I would enjoy writing.

 

Be good Steve.

 

Steve Souter

[Guest stevie cop]

Hello Steve. I did wonder who this diabolos bloke was! How are you?

 

I have already conceeded that maybe uptiding isn't the most successful overall method of boat fishing for all areas. However, for obvious reasons, in the areas where it is used the most, it is the most successful method. In my area, the Thames estuary, the species we target are Cod, Thornback ray, Smoothound, Tope, Bass, etc, etc. With the exception of Bass and Mullet, uptide fishing accounts for more fish than any other method. I spend most of my time Bass fishing, so the majority of my fish, over the year, are caught by methods other than uptiding. But, the vast majority of fish, (in my area), in general are caught uptiding.

 

As for uptiding and boat casting, They have been described as one and the same. However, I tend to class uptiding as the method that I've described, with the bow of line, set grip lead, soft rod, etc. Boatcasting, to me is any other method where by you cast from a boat. A favourite method of fishing the sand banks in the Thames estuary, (also developed by C&R), is to cast a plain lead up or across the tide and let it roll onto or along the bank. I would describe this method as one form of boatcasting, but not uptiding.

 

I have used fixed spool reels for uptiding, mostly for experiments!, and I have never been able to feel the weight hit bottom. Yes, sometimes you know when it's hit bottom because the line will stop, or slow coming off the spool. In a fast tide, this doesn't always happen. Maybe it's different with braid? I can only go by my experiences, and I certainly wouldn't call you a liar if you told me you could feel it.

 

You hit the nail on the head when you mentioned the simplicity of uptiding. Sometimes people tend to forget the simplicity and over complicate things. This was brought home to me a couple of years back when a friend, Cliff Stone, wrote an article for Boat fishing monthly about how uptiding has gradually evolved over the years. For research for his article, we fished various marks and with various rods, reels, lines, weights, etc, and compared results. Cliff even tried out different tension and different size beads on breakaway lead wires!

 

The conclusion we came to, based on bite registration, number of bites, fish connected with and fish landed, was that Bob had got it right back when he first developed the method. (I will admit though, that I was unaware of the method being used first in Europe.) It appeared that variations to the method over the years had lessened it's efficiency. If anyone has access to old copies of BFM, Cliff explains it a lot better than I can! No, my comment about uptiding in it's purest form was definately not a "fend off"!

 

Yes, I know the rod you are talking about. Funny enough, it was only last week that Bob explained to me exactly how those rods were developed. To say the process was thorough would be a gross understatement! There were all sorts of wierd and wonderful mathematical formulas involved. He just scratches the surface on that video you're talking about. I suppose that might be one reason why I was so quick to jump on your initial post. A lot of research and development took place back then, and I still believe that in certain areas, it is still the most productive method of boat fishing.

 

In it's purest form of course! ;o)

 

All the best

Steve

[Davy Holt]

Hiya,

 

Steve Coppolo:

 

Take Davy Holt's and Spurhound's examples of uptiding in 300 ft of water, then saying that the tide doesn't run properly, or runs two different ways on the top and bottom. Again, just because they are casting uptide, doesn't mean they are uptiding! I know it sounds like a contradiction, but you need a good tide to create the =needed bow in the line when uptiding "proper". Can you see what I'm getting at?

erm .. just for clarification... I was using a 5oz grip lead that would if fished normally not be enough to hold bottom. I was casting approx 60 - 70 yrds UPTIDE with an uptide rod and after the weight had hit the bottom I let out a very large amount of line to create a "Bow" when the tide pushed through.

 

So according to your own definition I was doing "proper" UPTIDING