Exceptional Growth Rates

[Marginmaster]

Folks,

 

I was asked my opinion by another Carp Angler on whether the growth rates of fish, particualry the Simmos in the Oxford area was healthy or are we setting ourselves up for a great big fall in a few years to come as these fish grow too big too quickly. To be honest I didn't know how to give a response which was based on any fact, and only drawing analogies to the Human Race where the Obese are generally less fit and healthy than a preson of normal weight (Sumo wrestlers excpted). I then struggled on wether a big carp is actually obese, again no facts, so thinking of the fights I have had from some big Fat??? carp, I was thhinking Sumo rather than Simmo. So I guess Iam asking does anyone have any facts or evidence that supports a fat/big carp that has grown to 30lb in a few years on a diet of mostly pellett and boilie being healthy or unhealthy. I notice Jim Gibbinson is on the forum as we speak I'd appreciate your view. Stu

[peter mccue]

Folks,

 

I was asked my opinion by another Carp Angler on whether the growth rates of fish, particualry the Simmos in the Oxford area was healthy or are we setting ourselves up for a great big fall in a few years to come as these fish grow too big too quickly. To be honest I didn't know how to give a response which was based on any fact, and only drawing analogies to the Human Race where the Obese are generally less fit and healthy than a preson of normal weight (Sumo wrestlers excpted). I then struggled on wether a big carp is actually obese, again no facts, so thinking of the fights I have had from some big Fat??? carp, I was thhinking Sumo rather than Simmo. So I guess Iam asking does anyone have any facts or evidence that supports a fat/big carp that has grown to 30lb in a few years on a diet of mostly pellett and boilie being healthy or unhealthy. I notice Jim Gibbinson is on the forum as we speak I'd appreciate your view. Stu

 

Very interesting question, I'm rather dissapointed that you've had no replies to it yet because I'd like to see some facts to.

 

I have some opinions & observations but unfortunately no facts!

[RobStubbs]

Don't get me wrong guys but there are no facts, just opinions. If you want facts then go searching for scientific research but you will be dissapointed.

 

Don't however compare pellets and boilies - that's like chalk and cheese. Pellets are generally low protein high fat - especially things like trout pellets. They are not good for carp - how bad they are I don't know. Boilies on the other hand are generally closer to optimal carp food. Do some searching on the research into carp feeds used in foreign countries where carp are food fish. Don't also forget in healthy waters, there is tons of natural food for the fish to eat which will give them a more balanced diet.

 

Lastly the signs of ill health are greater disease rates and mortality and susceptibility to infections and parasites. I can't speak for other waters but one I fish which has fish to 50lb, including some reasonably fast growing simmo's has very few deaths so it would appear to be a healthy 'colony' of carp.

 

If you fish over stocked, holes in the ground then the fish in there will be likely to be more unhealthy and mortality rates will undoubtedly be higher. I personally won't fish any waters like that as I don't want to support what to me is an unhealthy situation.

 

Rob.

Edited August 13, 2006 by RobStubbs

[Marginmaster]

Rob,

 

Tend to agree actually, most of my fishing is done on the linear complex which as you probably know has had numerous stockings of Simmos, and although growth rates are impressive the fish seem healthy in the main and fight like tigers, but there is a common problem that I have seen with a number of the simmos an that haveing what looks like a rib sticking out (not breaking the skin) just above the vent, any ideas what thats all about ?????

 

Stu

[Julian]

Good topic, where’s Bruno when you need him!?

 

I would think the more you breed any strain the less stable it will become and the more susceptible it will be to mortality. You only have to look to other animals for examples. My mum used to be well into breeding German Shepard dogs for showing - proper pedigree stuff at no small amount of money - but you only had to look at the peak of the breed to see that they were susceptible to health problems (Shepard’s in particular suffered from heart problems) and thus those with the best lineage often had a reduced life expectancy over your average mongrel. Most other breeds that had been bred and bred were the same, many pedigree Old English Sheepdogs suffered with blindness for example.

 

I would hazard a guess that the same think happens in fish breeding. I assume the way to get bigger and bigger fish is to take the biggest offspring from each batch and use them as the brood stock for then next lot, and then pick the biggest offspring from those and repeat the process ad infinitum. The problem with this inbreeding is that any genetic traits (good or bad) will often be passed down from generation to generation, and if you take the example of the pedigree dogs having problems when inbreeding occurs, then I can only assume the same thing would happen if the same was done with fish?

 

I think Rob has hit the nail on the head with regard to mortality. I know of a few waters that have had simmo’s where they have not faired as well as they could have, but stocking density may well have been a factor. Stu, I think the rib problems you mention might be some form of cysts – I’ve seen this on a number of simmos but in many different places and often away from the rib cage.

 

As for setting ourselves up for a fall, I think it’s down to individual fishery managers/owners to decide which is the best strain for their particular situation. I’m currently involved with a syndicate lake where we spent nearly three months debating which strain to stock, and the last thing on our minds was how quick they would become 30’s. We eventually settled on what might be a slower growing strain when compared to some, but I’m quite confident they will be among the nicest looking carp in the country even if it takes them a few years to get ‘big’. They will only be going in at between 5lb and 7lb and will be the only carp in the water, but we filled all the syndicate places within a week and the waiting list in operation could fill it five times over already, so I’m happy to say that there are still those anglers out there to whom size is not everything.

 

I guess the key to long term breeding is to keep mixing the strain to ensure longevity; after all, we wouldn’t want them to end up looking like the royal family!

[Steve Burke]

I don't believe in writing on subjects I have no experience of and so I'm not qualified to give an opinion on the Simmo fish. However I have developed a big carp water at Wingham where the fish have reached a very high average size and so the following may be of interest.

 

The first point is that it's not just the strain of the fish that matters. Put a really good strain of fish into a poor water and they won't grow big.

 

Secondly, I have 4 strains of carp at Wingham and this helps to avoid inbreeding.

 

Thirdly, individual fish can shoot up in one year, and then barely grow the next. What's important is the average growth of the fish over a number of years. Note that, even though they'll be good years and bad years for the water as a whole, some of the fish will be jumping in growth one year, different fish in other years.

 

Some believe that very fast-growing fish don't live as long as slow-growing ones and that the maximum weight has a ceiling, whatever the age. This is certainly the case with pike, but I'm not convinced it is with carp.

 

One of the most important factors is stock density. Each water will support only so many lbs of fish per acre, and usually the carp have to compete with other species. In fact the vast majority of UK stillwaters are overstocked, some grossly so - and I'm not talking about just commercials here.

 

I'm convinced that one of the reasons why the Wingham fish have grown so well is that there's little fishing pressure. If the fish are pressured, especially on a water fished by good anglers, they'll soon get pushed off the best feeding areas - as Rod Hutchinson pointed out in an interview in Tim Paisley's book "Big Carp". Lack of fishing pressure is also the reason why Rod thought that carp in some northern European countries grew bigger than in the UK - despite the colder winters and thus a shorter growing season. I believe an additional reason is that fish that are wary of what they eat consume less and thus don't grow so big.

 

For those who point to HNV baits being the key I'd say look at the record carp since the war. All grew up in lightly fished waters, and one grew huge before HNV baits were even invented. I'd suggest that the lack of fishing pressure is more important than the bait going in, at least in the 15 years or so the fish are growing in length. It may not be after that, but even the oldest of my fish have only just reached that age so it's too early to judge. Additionally, bait won't make so much difference in a lightly-stocked water where there's enough food to go round anyway. It will of course in a water that's overstocked - and as I said most UK stillwaters are.

 

Of course record fish are freak fish. Only a tiny proportion of a population becomes giants. You can't manage a water to specifically produce a record. All you can do is to try to achieve the highest possible average weight when the fish are fully grown, and this is what I've done at Wingham. Hopefully you'll have a freak fish amongst the population that'll break the record - but it's very doubtful.

 

Of course if you want an instant big fish water you can also import carp from France or other warmer countries. But that's another topic........

[Marginmaster]

Very interesting, I'm really pleased that this thread has generated some interest. I had never actually considered Angling pressure as a contributing factor in growth rates, but I think the argument put forward here is acurate. Gaunts lake on the Linear Guys Syndicate, now I have thought about it ,is a calssic example. The bigger fish seem to have reached their max ceiling weights, the two forties (had one of them, show off !)haven't varied in weight by much at all for the last few years and I think that sits in line with more anglers being on the pit for longer over that period, I certainly know that the fish turn off on a Friday afternoon as the cars roll along the gravel, then turn on again on a tuesday morning when the banks empty, perhaps if they had three morre days to munch they might start to grow again, but how do you spread the pressure when most can only do weekends, thats a question I havbn't a clue how to answer. S

[Steve Burke]

.... but how do you spread the pressure when most can only do weekends, thats a question I havbn't a clue how to answer. S

 

That's very difficult on a day ticket water, but much easier on a season ticket one.

 

For instance you could have a weekday only ticket.

 

Alternatively you could have a rota system with members allowed to fish only alternate weeks. However I feel that wouldn't work and pressure would actually increase as members would be more likely to fish their own weekend knowing that they couldn't fish the following one.

 

Or you could like me have a very small membership (27 on 15 acres) so that fishing pressure is very light whatever the day of the week. Of course that does mean that the ticket price is high.

 

Also remember that if your water is overstocked you'll need a certain amount of fishing pressure as the fish rely on angers' baits to put on weight. Indeed some waters are so overstocked they rely on anglers' baits to keep them alive! On the other hand Wingham has a lot of natural food and this is what has put the weight on my fish.

 

Please don't think though from my original post that there's not much to growing big fish. There are a lot of other factors too, but space prohibits my going into them all.

[Julian]

Some great points there Steve,

 

The subject of angling pressure is one I remember discussing with you at Wingham and it certainly pricked my attention in relation to our plans - so much so that we imposed a maximum 48hr per week rule for members fishing the new syndicate in the hope of spreading or reducing the pressure during their growing years.

[Steve Burke]

Some great points there Steve,

 

The subject of angling pressure is one I remember discussing with you at Wingham and it certainly pricked my attention in relation to our plans - so much so that we imposed a maximum 48hr per week rule for members fishing the new syndicate in the hope of spreading or reducing the pressure during their growing years.

 

An excellent idea, Julian!

 

This is the full rule I have at Wingham:

 

"Members may fish up to 4 days in any consecutive 14, with part days counting as a whole day. However, overnight sessions count as only 1 day if for less than 24 hours. Additionally, at the management’s discretion, members may fish the Coarse Lake for a whole week once a year, but this must be booked in advance. New members may not fish Bank Holiday weekends in April and May in their first season."

 

I'd add that members know that if they fished 4 days every fortnight during the warmer months they wouldn't be breaking the rules but they wouldn't get their tickets renewed!