are cod returning?

[Guest challenge]

Doc.

I have been saying for weeks and weeks on this forum that the fishing (trawling) concentration in the North Sea is no where near what it was just a few years ago.

Your figures certainly back my judgement.

Your figures do not back your own judgment on an unsuccessful shell fishery.

Still I suppose we could throw figures about all day and have different conceptions on what we think is success and what failure is.

My presumption of success on this subject was that twenty years ago the shell fishery was on the brink of collapse. Today (as you stated) we have the biggest shellfishery in Europe (Bridlington) contributing to a stable hardworking shellfish industry.

An industry that compared with the white fish industry of these parts has been a success.

Because of the dedication and good management of both the people in it and the authority’s who have policed and managed it.

You know as well as I do that traditional opening of new fishing grounds has been the backbone of any fishery. Having new grounds to work (and the boats capable of working these grounds) has always allowed grounds and stocks to recuperate.

You always get movement or shifting of employment within any industry. It comes and goes. Nearly always driven by finical gain or loss.

Nationalised industries had massive amounts of employees but did not always mean that they where finically sound.

The commercial fishermen that are left today might not be successful in your eyes, but in mine and in most cases there’s I believe they would agree that you need to invest in some glasses with a wider vision.

As for your childish comments about the French? Why make such a childish comment when referring to somebody else anyway. A comment that was (regardless of how you want to turn it) in my view meant to be offensive.

[wurzel]

Hello Doc and challenge

 

I've been following your posts with interest.

 

I wonder if the shell fish fishery would have grown if the severe

winters of the 60's and early 70's had continued, I doubt it, for a start it probably would not have needed to as the cod fishery would have continued, the fishermen of Yorkshire have done what all fishermen do,diversify, the same here, there is no denying that the milder climate has enharnesd the lobster, sole and in the near furure I hope the bass fishery (when they eventually get big enough)

These fisherys are sustainable while conditions suit them, they will sustain a certain amount of fishermen, the number will be defined by the economics usally after a bit of argybargy for the available ground.

But I fear we are heading for a disarster, if we enter a period of harder winters, like last winter, for say 10 years, these fisherys would take a dive, look at the long faces that were on these fishermen last spring, emagine what it would be like if the Sea tempreture droped 2 degrees permently. the problem I see coming is that the cod would come back big time but the fishermen due to this misconception of over fishing will never be allowed to change back and fish for them again.

 

Bring on globle warming I say, I need it to survive.

[maidstonemike]

Wurzel, you are a one off, thank goodness. Two of you would be unbearable.

[The doctor]

John

 

At the risk of getting wrapped up in a two-way slinging match, I'll post my final comments on this particular subject and we can agree to disagree.

 

Firstly I have never at any time said that the Yorkshire shellfish fishery was unsuccessful (your words), what I did say was that it wasn't a fantastic managerial success (your words). Yes a lot of money is being made, yes the fishery supports livelihoods, yes there are still shellfish to be caught, and yes these guys are hardworking, I know from personnel experience. So now lets put all of this into context.

 

Has effort increased for the same returns? Yes

 

So it therefore costs more time and effort to catch the same amount of shellfish

 

Has effort remained intensive inshore? Yes

 

No fallow field rotation system there, the inshore grounds are still as heavily fished as before, they are not getting any respite. The only difference now is that for many fleets the soak times are 72hrs instead of 48hrs, as the vessels are tending more gears further away on a more frequent basis.

 

 

Doc.

 

Are fishermen looking at new grounds further away? Yes

 

Why? To give the inshore grounds a rest maybe? No because there isn’t enough to sustain the bulk of the fishery, and in these days of high fuel costs nobody is going to steam offshore away from good sustainable grounds in order to simply access new grounds. The fact of the matter is that they have no choice, to maintain viability they have to operate further afield.

 

No matter how you gloss it, fantastic managerial success in terms of fisheries, can be gauged by the sustainability and economic ability of the operation, at the moment one of the two is open to significant question and in the other the odds are reducing.

 

A valuable fishery YES, a fantastic managerial success NO

 

Peter

 

In all probability you are right, there has always been a shellfish fishery as long as I can remember, but it was on a much smaller scale, mainly a few cobbles. The main difference was that it was more of a ‘mixed fishery’ in that during the late spring to autumn most would be potting with a few nets out as well, winter would be almost exclusively lining and netting for cod. What we have nowadays is almost exclusively potting all year round, many because of the decline in cod during the 90’s and early 2000 have lost their entitlement, so they have to fish solely for shellfish, some can’t even land the cod they get in their pots.

 

Once the trawlers started going to the wall, a few realised that the only way was to diversify into shellfish, which is what some have done. Its difficult to know whether climate change has been responsible for the expansion of shellfish, the lobster restocking CEFAS did in the 80’s must have helped, but like many things the demise of the cod removed a significant predator from the equation. I have to say I don’t share your optimism for the bass, certainly not up here. If we are about to go into a prolonged period of negative NAO, the sea temps will remain colder and I see a constriction in the success of bass in the North Sea, good for cod though, but as you point out, not for the local and inshore fishermen.

[wurzel]

Hello Doc

 

Quote

Its difficult to know whether climate change has been responsible for the expansion of shellfish, the lobster restocking CEFAS did in the 80’s must have helped, but like many things the demise of the cod removed a significant predator from the equation.

 

It's only dificult for you as a boffin, as a fisherman, for me it's simple warmer water means more lobsters soles and bass colder water more cod.

[The doctor]

Hello Doc

 

It's only dificult for you as a boffin, as a fisherman, for me it's simple warmer water means more lobsters soles and bass colder water more cod.

 

oh if only it was that simple, you carrot cruncher you LOL and heres me thinking you were a good old Essex boy.

 

The trouble being a boffin as you put it (is that a form of racism - maybe its being scientist or a case of scientism) is that you know its probably the case but need the proof, not only that but you need to be able to explain it fully, and with all climate driven events a long term dataset or pattern is essential. There are significant links to climate, but there are one or two other factors involved which may contribute to the successful recruitment of particular species to a greater extent, climate may just be an initial driver.

 

The warmer climate as the major link doesn't explain the abundance and presence of those species during the pre-climate change days (1800's Silver pits - sole fishery etc.) .

 

 

Doc.

Edited September 4, 2006 by The doctor

[Guest challenge]

doc

To turn a depleted fishery pillaged with illegally landed (undersize) lobsters.

A fishery that was at rock bottom. Into as you say “a valuable fishery YES”. To me is a managerial success.

A success that the fishermen (with others) should take the credit for. I don’t expect you to ever give commercial fishermen any credit and I would not expect them to want any from you. They have financially rewarded themselves with a successful fishery.

Who should be left to monitor the cod if they do return doc? Who should we leave to manage the cod if they return? Surely not the incompetent departments (weather political or scientific) who as history shows have done everything and anything but bring success (be it management or environmentally) to an industry that shows through out the world, if properly advised and managed can be successful.

Regards.

[glennk]

That may be the situation right now challenge but what about next year and the year after ? If more and more pots are put in by those diversifying from white fish then where does it end ?

 

Likely those members of the fishing communtiy who fished the fishery with small boats etc will be the first to feel the pinch. I havent a crystel ball but I wouldnt be surprised if a few of them are out of work in 5 years time and the big guys have monoploised the industry. Wether the current state of play is a succes or failure is debatable (as we have seen) but an industry monopolised by fat cats who drove out the small man will not be a sucess. I hope it doesnt happen but when you hear about the amount of pots stacked in a fish factory on the industrial estate you can see it taking shape.

[groyne bandit]

do you not think tecy is the problem ,, if it was all left to the old way of fishing be it trawler or charter ,, the old blokes used to do it like that , good days & bad days ,,,even the fish had a good or a bad day ,,,,,,we seem to have lost all the old skills in every walk of life , since electricity.....i know life has got harder to pay for but its being paid for in the wrong way,,,,,,,,,short term comes to mind ,,, rich,,

[Jaffa]

That may be the situation right now challenge but what about next year and the year after ? If more and more pots are put in by those diversifying from white fish then where does it end ?

 

Likely those members of the fishing communtiy who fished the fishery with small boats etc will be the first to feel the pinch. I havent a crystel ball but I wouldnt be surprised if a few of them are out of work in 5 years time and the big guys have monoploised the industry. Wether the current state of play is a succes or failure is debatable (as we have seen) but an industry monopolised by fat cats who drove out the small man will not be a sucess. I hope it doesnt happen but when you hear about the amount of pots stacked in a fish factory on the industrial estate you can see it taking shape.

 

Hi Glenn, like you i think the samll guys will suffer the most just as they always seem to do with the way we "manage" fisheries atm

 

As you say, non of has a crystal ball; I can imagine that the Altaire is one of your "pet hate boats" , but its only a generation a go that there would have been a small wooden Altaire, and now theres that huge boat you know about. A huge boat whose quota is now owned by the Dutch.

 

In the long run I doubt the dutch will see any point in landing into UK ports for processing ; far more efficient to build a ship to process and freeze the catch aboard, dump the squarish "fruit" over the side, and land on the continent. What was once the Shetlanders grounds will end belonging to some remote corparation. All attempts by the council there to keep the Shetland quota in Shetland have fallen foul of EU competion law (at least as far as i understand/remember it it).

 

Ask yourself this. Have all the regulations poured on our fishing fleet increased or decreased the drivers towards centralisation and stories like the Altaire?

 

 

 

Imagine yourself a Peterhead whitefish skipper trying to get to grips with the rules and regs they have to deal with day in day out. Makes a lot more sense to sell up to a company who can employ specialist staff to deal with all that stuff. More specialists to deal with their responses to RSA, lobbying in the EU, lobbying against the green machine, People to deal with the endless HSE regs, food safety regs, and on and on..

 

In my patch we now have West coast scallopers fishing ground that has never seen a dredge because the food standards agency ,has set the levels of what is a toxic to a ridiculous level to cover their backs.

 

The last small time salmon fisher in my patch was put out of business by seals, after totally unscientific politics took culls over. In his last year he was not getting a single salmon that did not have the one bite out of it.

 

No idea what im saying here Glenn, just angry and ranting.

 

 

 

Chris

 

A phrase that rattles about my head is one I used to hear from NE commercials : " it all comes out of the cod end"

Edited September 4, 2006 by Jaffa