marine white paper

[steve good]

Wrong. The Member States decide solely how to share fishing rights and catches within and among their own fishing sectors.

 

Hi FishingsFine

 

My understanding is that all member states must abide by European fisheries law however there is a provision that any member state may introduce further fisheries laws provided that it is base on conservation and that it does not have an adverse affect on the said fishery. It is illegal for any member state to introduce any measures that will be deptrimental to that fishery.

 

DEFRA have openly stated that they are not introducing the increase in mls for bass on grounds of conservation they are doing it so as to give anglers larger fish and commcials better prices.

 

The bass stocks are being fished sustainablly has been quoted by pawson,bradshaw,joe borg and ices and there is no basis for it to be done on grounds of conservation.

 

It is quite simply and completely ILLEGAL

 

regards steve

[steve good]

Ok just a quick one then as i haven't disected all yer post, not within six miles they don't

 

Hi Barry

 

So your bass do not swim out to the other side of the six miles at some time of the year then, where they then fall under European law and bass HOVERS such as French pair teams

 

I better come fishing with you then We could go bass fishing 12 months of the year then.

 

That means that could I throw away all my other gear and fishing methods,

 

Which are

 

bass trawls,sole trawlers,mixed fish trawls, mid water single boat trawls and trible rig trawl

 

scollop dredges oyster dregdes, double drum trawl winch and 3 spilt drum winches

 

bass longlines and trot lines and longline hauler

 

bass gill setnet, bass trammels net, bass drift net, bass ringnet

 

sole tangle,trammel and cross tide trammel

 

ray nets and cod gills along with net hauler and net clearing and stowing machine

 

and last but not leasted one brother sewing machine that i sew all my set nets together with while watching tv my wife will be pleased.

 

so where do we catch all these bass inside the 6 miles then

 

steve

[barry luxton]

Hi Barry

 

OH DEAR, theres that tunnel vision I was talking about, did you not understand what I was saying.

 

I will answer your post and call it a day I think.

 

QUOTE/ Mornin Steve, i think this is where we go around and around. Discard between trawling and netting, o dear, Wurzel has stated previously that netting discard is minimal compared with trawling , who am i to believe, where does the truth lie. Does this mean i am to change my opinion? I don't have a problem changing if i knew who is closer to reality. However Stavy's post 67 on bradshaw bottles it topic, the download provided states that gill netting is highly selective? Sounds good to me.

 

The truth is, Wurzel is right in what he is saying hes talking about what discards he gets in his setnets when he brings them on to his boat. Where as I am talking about the mortelity of escaping fish (another form of discards) from the nets that are still in the water, whilst they are fishing (soak time).

 

Every mesh size will only gill retain and hold a certain range of fish sizes (selectivity), fish mortelity by escaping fish is caused by, when a fish that is just under the range that the mesh size will hold gets caught and then later escapes, then dies from injuries it received when caught in the net (discards). The same thing happens to larger fish that are above the mesh holding size. The more net that is worked the higher the (discard) rate of mortelity by escaping fish. It will affect all fish not just bass, and this is why I say that setnets subject to how much is used all around the country may have more discards than trawls only on the subject of the bass fishery

 

The mortelity of escaping fish (discards) is consistant and relitive to all mesh sizes. it does not lessen if the mesh size is increased it may or may not be less in number but it will be up in weight

 

QUOTE/ The only way in which the uk bass fishery will collapse is due to the take. No commercial guy would intentinally collapse a fishery would they? As you have posted, intentionally target the breeding stock, surly not. Then closed season's spring to mind. From what you have posted it now appears that more regulation to protect the stock could be required. The mortality of the bass regarding netting, must lessen if the net size increase. Again this would mean a better class of fish landed. That in turn would take the pressure off the smaller sized fish, coming on surly. What do the wag assembly know compared with Bass to attempt to create disparity between them and the rest of the uk i wonder?

 

If the mls and mms goes up then DEFRA will be forcing fishermen to concentrate their fishing effort on the breeding stock. QUOTE/ No commercial guy would intentinally collapse a fishery would they? As you have posted, intentionally target the breeding stock, surly not. no commercial fishermen would not do that but if thats the law they will have to.

 

At the moment commercial fishermen are fishing on the whole range of bass sizes, when the mls increases then there will be a direct, aimed bass fishery on the breeding stock, complete with the right sized mesh to catch the most of this breeding stock. It may as you say take the pressure off the smaller sized bass however so many years down the road will the breeding stock be able to produce much of the smaller stock.

 

The disparity between the mls in the UK may mean that 36 cm bass may in certain parts of England still be landed

 

QUOTE/ Nffo, after all of the time, money spent on the consultation period, evidance provided, it's a bit strange that defra has gone back on what it must have taken care to decide, so the 'argument ' put up by nffo and the hidden chairman of an angling club must be so compelling. I can't wait to see exactly what is is. Have you any idea?

 

Yes the consultation was a waste of money and had a predetermined outcome for a reason best known to DEFRA, I submitted a 11 page reply covering all the reasons as to why the mls should not be increased and I cannot believe the NFFO have found one that I missed it proves to me that DEFRA never read peoples replies

 

QUOTE/ Again i do not see why the nffo are spending so much effort on resisting what is considered improvement, value of the bass stock

 

It is only improvement value in bass stocks when you have tunnel vision, To accept the mls and mms and implement it regardless of cost, it will be one of the biggest blunders that DEFRA could make and for the sake of the bass fishery the NFFO have taken a laudable stance and Mr Bradshaw and DEFRA are acting responsable in there actons to look at the problems that may be created.

 

It was not done on grounds of conservation it was to give anglers more larger fish, DR Pawson, DEFRA, Joe Borg EU and ICES all have stated that the bass fishery is being fished sustainably

 

QUOTE/ The disparity between the uk and the eu is for bradshaw to sort out, that is what we are paying his wages for. Obviously my concern is for the uk stock

 

Mr Bradshaw cannot sort out anything to do with the disparity between the UK and the EU because of the above paragraph.

 

Your concern for the, as you say UK stock is not factual because it is European stock and I am afaid to say that Europeans have more say and entiltment to it, than what we in the UK have.

 

regards steve

 

I won't concede to tunnel vison, what i would admit to is lack of knowledge regarding the distructive method of commercial fishing in relation to the actuall amount of discard that is now being highlighted. How much more discard is hidden away by a fishery that is worth less than 5% of the total commercial take anually. Perhaps someone could work out the amount of discard in relation to the take and to include the hidden discard that is not normally seen. I.e. soak time discard. Again i have to admit i did not give that one any consideration, i do now. Another bit of tunnel vision on my part, i wasn't aware that the eu had jurisdiction right up to our shoreline, blimy. Why do we have the likes of bradshaw then. If as every one is saying the bass is sustainable why are the likes of defra proposing bag limits etc. Is it a vendetta, no wonder the rsa backs are up. i don't blame them.

 

the nffo are not doing it for the benifit of anglers, when did they ever consider anglers. To the contray, they couldn't care less. Please don't tell me the likes of mr lokyer have conservation on their minds.

 

Less than two weeks ago i spoke to a very good mate of mine who runs a charter boat,he has also spent time commercially fishing for the bass in the portland race, we were talking about the bass issue and he was surprised that i was dissapointed in the mls issue as he stated that the stamp of the fish targeted was between 36 and 40 cm in any event. If that is what sustainability is about, it is all very sad for the bass stock.

 

Differance , disparity between the uk and french fish stalls is the size of the fish, i know what one i prefer.

[steve good]

I won't concede to tunnel vison, what i would admit to is lack of knowledge regarding the distructive method of commercial fishing in relation to the actuall amount of discard that is now being highlighted. How much more discard is hidden away by a fishery that is worth less than 5% of the total commercial take anually. Perhaps someone could work out the amount of discard in relation to the take and to include the hidden discard that is not normally seen. I.e. soak time discard. Again i have to admit i did not give that one any consideration, i do now. Another bit of tunnel vision on my part, i wasn't aware that the eu had jurisdiction right up to our shoreline, blimy. Why do we have the likes of bradshaw then. If as every one is saying the bass is sustainable why are the likes of defra proposing bag limits etc. Is it a vendetta, no wonder the rsa backs are up. i don't blame them.

 

the nffo are not doing it for the benifit of anglers, when did they ever consider anglers. To the contray, they couldn't care less. Please don't tell me the likes of mr lokyer have conservation on their minds.

 

Less than two weeks ago i spoke to a very good mate of mine who runs a charter boat,he has also spent time commercially fishing for the bass in the portland race, we were talking about the bass issue and he was surprised that i was dissapointed in the mls issue as he stated that the stamp of the fish targeted was between 36 and 40 cm in any event. If that is what sustainability is about, it is all very sad for the bass stock.

 

Differance , disparity between the uk and french fish stalls is the size of the fish, i know what one i prefer.

[/quote

 

Hi Barry

 

my last paragraph should have read "once the uk bass have gone out past the six mile" we both know that the french can not legally fish inside the six mile. dont we

 

As to the other points you have raised they have already been answered in other posts.

 

As I said early I will call it a day.

 

All the best barry

 

kind regards steve

[Steve Coppolo]

As I said early I will call it a day.

 

 

kind regards steve

Yes, you can call it a day now Steve. After all, it's mission accomplished for you. Another opportunity wasted, another interest trampled on, and another spanner thrown in the works by commercial fishermen.

 

And you wonder why there is anamosity?

 

You deserve all you get.

Edited March 31, 2007 by Steve Coppolo

[wurzel]

Quote

The mortelity of escaping fish (discards)

 

Sorry Steve G but I've never heard of such a thing regarding gill nets, I have never experienced it or should I say seen proof of it happening, i.e dead fish on the ground we are working, as we keep all discards on board so as to keep the ground clean from dead rotting fish we would soon notice if there were any amount of dead escaping fish.

[steve good]

Yes, you can call it a day now Steve. After all, it's mission accomplished for you. Another opportunity wasted, another interest trampled on, and another spanner thrown in the works by commercial fishermen.

 

And you wonder why there is anamosity?

 

You deserve all you get.

 

Hi Steve

 

I have never been on a mission, so please explain what you mean by, mission accomplished, another opportunity wasted, interest trampled on, spanner thrown in the works.

 

Is it because I am telling it for what it is, just because you think something is a good idea does not make it right, some people have differant opinions, the idea is to exchange veiws so as to arrive at a better understanding of the situation, is that what debate is about or not.

 

steve

[steve good]

Quote

The mortelity of escaping fish (discards)

 

Sorry Steve G but I've never heard of such a thing regarding gill nets, I have never experienced it or should I say seen proof of it happening, i.e dead fish on the ground we are working, as we keep all discards on board so as to keep the ground clean from dead rotting fish we would soon notice if there were any amount of dead escaping fish.

 

Hi Wurzel

 

I am gob smacked that you have not heard of fish struggling through meshes and later dieing by the damage caused to there gills and scales, you got to be joking me.

 

Ok, I will come back to you on this one, need a bit of time to find scientific reports that I have read on the subject

 

steve

[steve good]

I can't wait for this being brought before the EC court. The court would be very reluctant to interfere in what's going on within the 6 and 12 mile. So I would guess if the case is based on the premises you mention the UK Gov might be told that if the new measure should lead to non-sustainable fishing then you have to add something to it like seasonal closures, closed areas etc. with no or limited access for commercial fishermen. So far we only have the ever opposed commercial fishermen's word for it that 40 cm mls should mean unsustainable bass fishing. The commercials have it in their power to make this a self-fulfilling prophecy, but I think they should be careful. If any sabotage acts should be disclosed the commercial sector might loose whatever credibility they may have left.

 

Hi FishingFine

 

I wrote a letter to Joe Borg at the EU asking him to do something about the French pair teams that fish the spawning stock of bass in the south west, I also asked him to recind the 40cm bass size or increase or make it apply to all member states.

 

I received a very full and interesting reply which covered many differant things that explained the situation.

 

One of these points explained that there was nothing that the EU can do because the bass stocks are at sustainable levels.

 

As I understand it legal action could be taken on the grounds, that the measures were not on the grounds of conservation.

 

If the measures are introduced and it can be proven that the said measures caused the bass fishery to become unsustainable, then I believe DEFRA may be in very hot water.

 

There will not be any acts of sabotage by the commercial fishermen, your comment is misplaced

 

If the measures are implemented and the fishery becomes unsustainable it will be caused by mis-management not sabotage, IE:- DEFRA forcing fishermen to increase disgarding and that the same time forcing fishermen to concentrate fishing effort on the breeding stock with ever increasing amounts of set nets

 

steve

[barry luxton]

[/quote

 

Hi Barry

 

my last paragraph should have read "once the uk bass have gone out past the six mile" we both know that the french can not legally fish inside the six mile. dont we

 

As to the other points you have raised they have already been answered in other posts.

 

As I said early I will call it a day.

 

All the best barry

 

kind regards steve

 

 

Mornin Steve, please don't stop on my account i do look forward to a robust 'disscussion'.

This one will run for a while i think.

 

All the very best to you and kind regards.