Big bream

[Dick Dastardly]

Totally agree about the undertow,especially with the "light dusting" groundbaiting we are trying to achieve.Ive been looking at Wingham (since seeing the underwater footage that showed the undertow) the same way as I do when fishing the big European rivers for carp.Location is more about where I think the feed will end up after being introduced at any given point.

[gozzer]

I was looking at Wingham on Google earth the other night and appreciate the location problems.

Blimey, it's like having miles of 'bankside' running up and down the place.

 

The part of the article that stood out for me, was the different types of bottom. "Sweet silt" was mentioned, along with "grazed areas" of bottom weed. These are the areas I would find 'interesting'.

The sweet/fresh areas of silt would obviously change, depending on recent wind direction/strength.

The grazed areas running through weed could be seen as regular feeding/patrol areas, and would (I think) provide the best chance of 'ambushing' the bream.

I don't know if you have access to a boat, but it would be a great help on 'recce' missions.

 

As to the groundbait. I recall an article many years ago, by I think Ian Heaps.

It was about match fishing the big rivers of Germany. (Budgie might be aware of it).

If I remember right one of the problems they had was that ground bait was washed away with the wake of the barges, and the current.

I remember something about soaking the crumb in a small amount of cooking oil. This provided an initial attraction, but stayed where it was until the action of the barges, or fish disturbed it, causing it to cloud up in the water.

The exact details are a bit vague in my mind. Do you Budgie, or anyone else remember it?

 

John.

 

John.

[Anderoo]

I think that if my goundbait can't get to the bottom without drifting off, I'm probably in the wrong spot anyway!

 

Apart from Den's shotted stick idea, any other ideas on how to measure undertow?

 

EDIT: just saw your post John, interesting stuff. There are no boats allowed by the way.

Edited February 17, 2009 by Anderoo

[Dick Dastardly]

Do you Budgie, or anyone else remember it?

John.

 

In the 80's a lot of the big name UK match anglers used to come across to fish the big "International" events we ran.Ian used to often stay at my mate Barry Greggory's house in Nienburg when he was over.Barry was the British Army of the Rhine Angling Team captain a team of which I was in.

 

On the River Wasser huge barges used to navigate it (as they do on most Europen rivers) When they passed (even if well out from the bank) their wake would suck all the water out of your swim leaving your keepnet high and dry and actually exposing the river bottom of your inside line! Shortly after the barge had passed the water came back......with a vengance!!

 

Not much you could do about this but just keep on re building the swim.However what I think you are refering to was when we fished deeper stretches where the "tidal effect"! wasnt quite as bad when a barge passed! These were typically bream venues and the feeder ruled.Trouble here was all though the barges wake wasnt so devistating on the bankside it did still send your feed all over the place.The problem being obviously that you couldnt keep a tight area of feed to fish into.

 

Lots of experimenting was done with groundbaits by adding biscuit meal (quite oily and a good binder) and adding oils.This was to try and achieve the effect you mention but I never saw any that really worked.Certainly didnt do Ian any good when I kicked his ass of the nex peg in the Nienburg International!

 

A lot of the carp feeds also work on a similar theory but there the actual carp is disturbing the groundbait and causing the bits and pieces to start being released and dancing round.

 

Pinch points which arnt to badly affected by undertow that lay between natural feeding areas are my choice.....finding them though is a different mater!

[gozzer]

Certainly didnt do Ian any good when I kicked his ass of the nex peg in the Nienburg International!

 

I only said it might have been Ian Heaps Budgie.

 

I thought you would have been there at the time though.

 

John.

[Errrm]

I think that if my goundbait can't get to the bottom without drifting off, I'm probably in the wrong spot anyway!

 

Apart from Den's shotted stick idea, any other ideas on how to measure undertow?

 

EDIT: just saw your post John, interesting stuff. There are no boats allowed by the way.

 

If I had the time and a good estimate of the 3D terrain of Wingham (possibly got through Google earth and someone marking depths) then it's possible to create a simulation using fluid dynamics to work out based on the direction the wind is blowing which areas of the lake will have the worst undertows and which areas would be slack. The more accurate the terrain mapping the more accurate the simulation.... possibly slightly overkill though.... and I'm not sure how much processing time/power you would need for a very accurate simulation i.e. you can reduce the time it takes to run the simulation but it wouldn't be as accurate. This would be done by reducing the resoltuion of the terrain mapping but you would obviously lose choke/pinch points where it would have a large effect on the undertow.

 

I doubt this is what you meant by 'other ideas' but this is all I've got :-)

 

Errrm

[lutra]

Apart from Den's shotted stick idea, any other ideas on how to measure undertow?

You should be able to get some idea of how much tow there is from your bobbins.

[Dick Dastardly]

I only said it might have been Ian Heaps Budgie.

 

I thought you would have been there at the time though.

 

John.

 

 

No you may well be right that it was Ian who had wrote about it John as it was certainly a very hot topic of disscussion amongst us all at the time. I think he was looking at it all too much from a UK point of veiw though.The real issue there wasnt to be able to keep the bream in front of you (as there were so many it didnt matter) but more increasing the speed you could land them at.

 

Several of us were then using 10m poles and fishing line to hand with what can best be described as a laying on rig.Soon as the bream was hooked it would be hauled to the top,the pole then laid flat and he current allowed to "kite" the fish over the long landing net.That was the key to 100kg bags.

 

Ians a nice guy though and a sh!t hot angler,he treated a small group of us to a "masterclass" in wagler fishing at the Yacht Club one afternoon and what he showed us won us a lot of matchs on the more roach dominated stretchs.

 

Totally of topic Im afraid! but allow me to reminiss!

[Dick Dastardly]

You should be able to get some idea of how much tow there is from your bobbins.

 

Yup Dens "poo sticks" for me this year Im going to make an effort to get my head around this undertow thing.

[Anderoo]

If I had the time and a good estimate of the 3D terrain of Wingham (possibly got through Google earth and someone marking depths) then it's possible to create a simulation using fluid dynamics to work out based on the direction the wind is blowing which areas of the lake will have the worst undertows and which areas would be slack. The more accurate the terrain mapping the more accurate the simulation.... possibly slightly overkill though.... and I'm not sure how much processing time/power you would need for a very accurate simulation i.e. you can reduce the time it takes to run the simulation but it wouldn't be as accurate. This would be done by reducing the resoltuion of the terrain mapping but you would obviously lose choke/pinch points where it would have a large effect on the undertow.

 

I doubt this is what you meant by 'other ideas' but this is all I've got :-)

 

Errrm

I'd love to be able to do that! I know it wouldn't be exactly what happens in the real world, but I bet it would help a great deal...

 

You should be able to get some idea of how much tow there is from your bobbins.

Yes, that's all I can think of, casting an unbaited rig around before feeding.

 

Reminisce all you like Budgie, I love these stories

 

I did notice that the tench were affected by the undertow last year, so it's definitely worth trying to suss. I was fishing a swim with two long, shallow parallel bars going away from me, and I was fishing in the wide gulley between them ('Plantation' swim for those who know it). As I looked out, the wind was coming from about 2 o clock (a SWerly). I figured that the most sheltered spot would be along the base of the right-hand bar, so that's where I baited for bream. Along the left-hand bar, where the tow was strongest, I fished for tench. The whole time the wind was from that direction, I caught tench from the left. That was the night I caught the bream, from the right (although the wind died off completely overnight). The next day the wind swung around and came from 11 0 clock (SEerly), and after that I didn't get any more tench from the left-hand spot (now sheltered) but started catching them from the right-hand spot (now in tow).

 

So, the tench moved with the tow, and seemed to like it! I guess that's where the food was being moved to. You'd think the bream would also like it for that reason, but from what info we have they don't seem to. Or maybe they just fed there because that's where I baited...

 

I need another lie down.

Edited February 17, 2009 by Anderoo