Phone

Den, I have and have had a standing offer on the subject of "feeding" for well over 25 years. In the name of science, anyone, and I shall take their word as a gentleman, who harvests a carp from water below 50f (I'd like to say 45 - 47 really) with more than a speck or two in the gut, and some portition being digested will "win". I'll stop reporting the science and let traditional "carp commercials" persist. NO TAKERS (although a lot of carp have been harvested) "Feeding" is an attempt to acquire enough energy to survive. Carp don't in temperatures below 50f. Since you take and know how to take water temps you know the surface temp differs the temp throughout the water column. You're spoofing ole Phone with the "weight gain" story. Biologically impossible if the water has remained below 50. (but I like you) Vagabond, Yes, of course the seasonal hatch is not included in the 7 month studies. Carp, without a stomach, have livers located along the back that are HUGE compaired with other fish species and this is where they store energy reserves. At the beginning of "winter(?)" the liver can be up to 40% larger than at spawn. Phone

Den, Bobj, No argument from me. Carp can survive up to 7 months under the stressed conditions you represent. 50 F or slightly lower carp can only digest up to 7% of what they injest. Not near enough to sustain life or reproduce. At some point during the year they have to have some warmer water. Den, They, carp, are not "feeding" in these cold water. They are mearly going through instinstive exercises without a feeding response. You're lucky (or hard headed) to catch carp in cold water, not skilled. BTW, the coldest a reasonably deep lake (3m) can get is 39 F at or near the bottom. That's when water is most dense - or - why ice forms on the top. Bobj, We (North America) too have examples of "carp gone wild". Too (maybe "to"?) bad really. Are you suggesting the reason the river dried up was the carp? No question serious controls must be instituted when they go "bonkers" (through no fault of their own really). You have me at a HUGE disadvantage since OZ is on my "bucket list" but as yet not accomplished. NO idea here. Phone

Smudger, As I've said, they are only fish. Do as you choose. Just don't say you are doing it in the name of "safety. Nobody recommends you rinse your fish in dirt. It is just safer for unhooking than a well rinsed mat (unless you choose to use a surfactant). You're being far to sensitive. Frankly, no one fishes any better than the English and for sure you are generally some of the worlds best stewards. We all do what we do with the best of intensions. It's just that sometimes we don't have the "facts" straight. At no time was I "digging". You'll see, I rarely do that in two dimensions. When you choose to use a mat is for you to decide - regardless of the science. We don't have many fisheries rules. And, for sure we have a lot more jerks than you have. What's your point? It's to bad when the rules you do have are not in the best interest of the fish (pure science, not opinion). As for the "boga grips". I have no scientific evidence, didn't bring the subject up, and don't know execpt what I've read that was written by fishermen. Fishermen often, in fact frequently, don't know much science. I can see wanting to minimize the "spook factor" in your net, so blac at least makes some sense. What do you think of at least using a white, thus cooler and easier to visually clean, unhooking mat? Not traditional enough? My discussions will never be personal jabs. You can repost with them if you choose. Conversations and "learning experiences" usually come from civil disagreements. I like that better. Phone

Ken L, I fished the UK during the heigth of the "peanut ban". Never so many peanuts go into lakes in my life as during the "ban". Where there's a will there's a way. Phone

Sportsman, I agree, For some reason "fish harvest" is a bad word in the UK for sport fish. Your example makes sense if reasonable controls are in place. C&R can kill only so many fish that are out of control. In the UK it looks like you are still searching for enough places for everyone that wants to fish to go (enought plesant water)? Phone (US/Canada and probably Australia(?) don't have that problem yet).

KenL You did that for me, didn't you? Phone It worked????

Newt, Can you say alligator? Phone (just kidding, but boy you sure don't have any carp) Vagabond, Carp cannot survive in water below 50F. What they can do is "go without" for up to seven months before parishing. For spawn to be successful the water needs to be mid- 60's at a minimum (but they can spawn any time of the year or more than once). As for fry, I have never frozen fry out. I don't even know what the parameter of such a study would be? From egg to fry to "juvie" doesn't take long for carp in water above 65 - 70F. That's the problem - they are prolific in favorable water. And, even worse, smaller females actually have a larger spawn than the "big ole girls". 8 lb carp is prime. Phone

Dales, I admit, not my style at ALL. Phone

vagabond, We seniors have to stick together or at lean on one another just to remain upright from time to time. I've never been to Australia, I've said that before. So you have me at a disadvantage. The reason I need an advantage is that I believe the "muddy water" story is (what's the English word - ******) BS. First, my research began in the early 70's and ended in the early 90's. I haven't been active in limnology issues for some time so I am "dated" if not tainted. The only possible issue I ever found in the literature is nest suffocation. Not likely carp. As you indicate, carp do not eat the vegetation, they are searching for bottom dwelling creatures. They rarely stay with one location to suffocate a nest. At the time, and perhaps today, Australia was a hotbed of "carp muddy the water". Not true. While a number of studies were conducted with that bias in mind none proved or even came close to proving carp put spawning natives "at risk" - even slightly. Perhaps there are newer studies I haven't read? Carp are bad boys, no question and Aussies don't like carp - that became clear. Carp had become, even in the 70's far to prolific. But I think it is wrong to accuse carp of something that instinctively simply doesn't happen. You mention the major culprits. Agriculture, nature, industry, and human encrochment(sp) i.e. pleasure boats, jet ski, dams, river channeling. Carp have become a favored sporting anglers scape goat. They don't do that. They are meticulous and effecient grubbers actually. In fact, some research found cloudy margins, usually not caused by carp, to be protective nurseries for fry from predators and actually increased the percent of spawn that survived to maturity. The Aussies became a great source for the anti-carp research studies. Equally FWIW, the Hungarians are very pro carp researchers. The Aussies seemed to delight in an anti-UK backlash toward carp as carp were "catching on" in England. Maybe a cultural thing?? Phone Ohh, also FWIW, I have never read ANY research from anywhere that supports the "muddy water" killing natives theory. Although I'll be the first to tell you carp "taste" exactly like the water they come from - foul or sweet - the water quality is in the flesh. Edit: I must have gotten the English word right. It turned into *****.

Dales, Well, I may vote (but not yet) as if it will make a difference. I now agree with Newt and my pal who know his pike. At least in NA summer piking sucks, both for the fish and for the angler. Spring, fall, winter they are top draw. Poledark, Thanks, (probably after the spawn?) Phone

Andy, Where does a feeder full of pellets sit? Are you saying "groundbait" refers to bait that suspends in the water column? Can you make your own pellets out of the same substances contained in groundbait? Would a feeder full of - - - ohh say - - - maize or hemp or lunch meat be "loose feed"? Phone

Smudger, In the first comment, I was mearly suggesting that C&R includes the use of photos and weights. Like you, most of my fish are released whilst still in the water if I can. I don't even have a cell phone camera (to my daughters disgust). But I'm not critical of folks who wish to do that. "Are you really trying say that a fish layed on the ground covered in dust, dirt,is better than a clean fish layed on unhooking mat??? " Answer: Yes (if fish safety is the issue) Recovery in the water is minimal, less slime is "lost" and the loss of slime is not a contributing factor in most freshwater fish diseases. Parasites yes - disease no. Overall, we have to admit there is no "up" side to a fish out of water. "Are you really trying say that a fish layed on the ground covered in dust, dirt,is better than a clean fish layed on unhooking mat??? As for fish to fish disease yes it happens every day and if its going to happen don't you think it would happen in the enviroment they live ie; the water they share and swim in and not wait until they might share a unhooking mat? " Yes, the mat exacerbates the concentration of pathogens. Rinsing in water is a joke. "As for stacking up fish over a session, your thinking carp maybe we don't do that over here with pike." Change the word "stacking" I mean catching more than one fish per session and reusing the same mat. "i do feel a bit bad" You shouldn't, they are just fish. (That's assuming you are a good steward to the sport). The rest of your comments I'd say offhand, the size of England or the number of inhabitants is not your responsibility as an angler. You should only be concerned with yourself and teaching (not preaching) others. In fact, from my side of the pond you guys mostly preach to the choir. You do wonderfully by our standards. You do have differences of parochial opinion but I would hope that is the case - wouldn't you? Trust me, throughout the world, execpt in rare circumstances, unhooking mats are an English "guilt complex" that only serve the "anti's". Fish survival and good health improves in there absense. Also, I don't know how to be computer fancy so I cut and pasted from your post #39 then posted the answers underneath. Phone

All, Please explain this to me this statement. Andrew B ask in post #1: ""I am going to a club fishery which won't allow groundbait what so ever but I am allowed to use pellets."" (I added the bold) What's the difference? Both to the fishery and to the fish? Or, maybe just the issue involved overall? Also, I define "groundbait" as bait that ends up on the "bottom of the surface" i.e. the grounded. It also is often used in fishing parlance for cereal grains and other substances put through a grinder. Is there yet another definition I should know? In which context is this question ask? Phone

davedave, Couldn't agree more with Chris. In general, The more bones the browner and lower the protein content. The blacker it is the more protein and fish oil. You know, fishoil and omega-3 and all that? With fishmeal you are buying the protein content (or more precisely they are selling---). More protein more costs. If I remember correctly (and I often don't) the maximum usable protein for CARP is 78% protein fishmeal powder. Although it is "usable" and carp like it a LOT, it is not very efficient (sp) cost/benefit for weight gain (ete etc). But for fishing for carp the "best" you can do is 78% protein fishmeal powder. Phone

Dales, I thought Newts answer was counterintuitive. "pike are more active in warmer water" Then he goes on to explain why they don't thrive in warm climes. In fact, it (Northern Pike) has been widely introduced outside this native range, even into southern and western states. Native range is where Newt says. However, the US Fish and Wildlife goes on to say, ""Although classified by biologists as a coolwater species, the northern pike exists in diverse habitats, somewhat like largemouth bass but without a tolerance for extreme warm conditions."" Blah blah blah "...[in]water temperatures up to 72 F. where spawing becomes an issue". It is true them "suck" as warm water sport fish but they survive until the other three seasons. To maintain Northern Pike populations in warm water they must be re-stocked (usually illegally). This last sentence is according to my pal Tom a muskie (musky) chaser and is not necessairly factual - he lies). Newt's answer was wrong (maybe?). (sorry Newt). Although the amount of dissolved oxygen issue does ring true. Just in general, and from a OLD memory I believe(?) the maximum DO in water occurs around 75 F (25 c) (??). Maximum density of water is 39 f. (4 c) - (I threw this in because I'm sure I remember that one!). Phone Dales, I thought Newts answer was counterintuitive. "pike are more active in warmer water" Then he goes on to explain why they don't thrive in warm climes. In fact, it (Northern Pike) has been widely introduced outside this native range, even into southern and western states. Native range is where Newt says. However, the US Fish and Wildlife goes on to say, ""Although classified by biologists as a coolwater species, the northern pike exists in diverse habitats, somewhat like largemouth bass but without a tolerance for extreme warm conditions."" Blah blah blah "...[in]water temperatures up to 72 F. where spawing becomes an issue". It is true them "suck" as warm water sport fish but they survive until the other three seasons. To maintain Northern Pike populations in warm water they must be re-stocked (usually illegally). This last sentence is according to my pal Tom a muskie (musky) chaser and is not necessairly factual - he lies). Newt's answer was wrong (maybe?). (sorry Newt). Although the amount of dissolved oxygen issue does ring true. Just in general, and from a OLD memory I believe(?) the maximum DO in water occurs around 75 F (25 c) (??). Maximum density of water is 39 f. (4 c) - (I threw this in because I'm sure I remember that one!). Phone Edit: I'm so full of chit my post appears twice???????????

Admin, Got to thinking. Maybe the "mat" issue is not germane. You may move it to a new thread if you wish. Phone

Inspector, We agree on everything execpt mats. - - - and remember, I too am learning about Euro piking. As I suggested to Emma two, line weight is probably mute if the guy will use braid. I am told by you and others, and I believe, is better for pike fishing. I believe I misinterperted the words in your () . I read it as "an" and I now believe you "typo'ed" the word "no". My bad for not asking in the first place. Two dimensions is tough, especially for me to be critical since I am, at best, a very poor typer, and even worse speller. As for the mats. Here's my opening comment. I will be as kind and gentle as I feel I can be while (whilst) disclosing the truth. First, let me say I am somewhat a realist. I don’t believe the world is any worse off because some fauna or flora is extinct any more than I feel the world is worse off because we don’t have dinosaurs anymore. The world is dynamic and ever changing. We now have 7 billion people currently on this earth and by 2050 we will have 9 billion. I don’t know or even want to predict the outcome. It's just fishing we are talking about. I think we should continue to fish just like we do. I see no reason to feel guilty if a few fish expire. Neither should we be hypocritical about why we do what we do. Namely practice catch and release fishing, with weights and photos. I do know this, for sure, of the five most harmful things anglers do, the most harmful is to use an unhooking mat. Unhooking mats are merely a physical convenience suitable to arriving at the next step, weighing and photographing. No one likes a nasty looking fish in a photograph and photos are necessary in catch and release. Unhooking mats are olive or black for a reason. It is to cover the overlay of what every angler must know is the worst possible collection of harmful biological materials we could possibly subject the fish to. Especially in the summer months when ambient mat temperatures (if black) exceed air temperatures on average by 10 or more degrees, and then are damp folded or re-wet before use creating a most awful environment. We in effect, create the best possible conditions to transmit virus, microorganisms and bacteria from fish to fish. Overall fish from a unclean black mat are in the worst possible conditions for a healthy release. If safety were an issue they would at a minimum become a white mat. It would allow the angler a chance to use visible care even if the fish slime could not be totally washed off with pond water. White would also reduce the heat retention and build-up in our traditional mats. Dirt and leaves have anaerobic and antibiotic properties not found in the synthetic surface of a mat. Airborne pathogens in dirt and vegetation are not usually as likely to be transmitted to fishes as waterborne pathogens. From a “fish care” perspective dirt (especially dry dust) is far better and vegetation is better yet. Although I admit, dirt and vegetation make for crummy pictures and pictures are part of what we do. For sure aesthetics play a huge role in the pictures we treasure. If you insist on using a mat as a means of keeping the fish clean for the visual effect/affect of a photography session the least you should do is carry a harmless environmentally and biologically friendly non-ionic surfactant. Preferably one in a can under pressure. Use it every time between fish on both the mat and the net (if you use a net). It is quite inexpensive. At least it would help the fish and make the “fish care” or “safety” story slightly believable. Lastly, don’t BS yourself or anyone else on the purpose of a mat. Fish give fish diseases and the mat is the one place they are most vulnerable and at a time they are most vulnerable especially after being collectively stacked up over the course of a session. You don’t have to feel badly if a few fish die. It happens – remember they are only fish. Phone

Dales, See post #2 Has that question ever been answered? Phone

Dales, I'm wondering? Let me say this differently. Pike like temperatures BELOW 50 - 55. Above 50 - 55 they vanish to deeper water (where the water is 50 - 55 and thus become more difficult to catch. That's what WE say. Now, in this thread folks are talking about the enjoyment of summer topwater fishing for pike. Almost SURELY the water is above 50 - 55. So, have pike addapted to warmer waters in the UK or is the same thing true as is in North America. Or, does the water remain in the pike comfort zone throughout the summer as well as the other seasons. I am trying to get a "grip" on why this thread and poll even exists? What possible differences are so profound in summer as to even ask such a silly question? Phone

Small, Just checking, is a "set" three? Could I have 500 EACH? Phone

Dales, Fahrenheit Tigger, I'm afraid I "threw in" the stress issue all by myself. I have not read that stress is an issue from any US experts. It does look misleading and I don't know a tinkers-damn about piking. The expert comment was that the pike tend to disappear to deeper, colder waters (become less catchable). We have some pike, like the Muskie (Musky) that actually prefer warmer water. I extrapolated all creatures have a "comfort zone" or maybe a "stress zone" -pike must have one also? Phone

DavyR, We are mostly "free will" thieves I think? I don't believe any prisioner ships came to America like the Aussies? Phone

corydoras, Yep, don't want to hijack the thread but it is a common practice with corn (maize). When we add yeast secured from a previous "tasty" batch they pretty much "match" for blending in a few years (or the same day for moonshine). What do you call "cider" made from other fruits? My grandmother kept a live compote pot to help cure the consumption. She had a lot of consumption. Phone

corydoras, Very cool pic. You guys are talking about fermented apple juice - - - right? Apple juice (unpasturized) is $1.00 a liter from the orchard. Let it set for a few days and shoot craps with your pals (or go fishing). One liter will ferment, one will turn to vinegar. Does that count as "making cider"? Some of the close nit groups of anglers I have fished with in the past are also into "homemade" beer. Whilst waiting for a run they talk for hours about the 1,100 varieties of yeast available commercially. I hate beer and enjoy hard cider once every three years. Phone BTW, apples are not the only fruit used. Do you make "other stuff"?

corydoras, I wonder how many Brits understand that my forefathers were kicked out of England for being thieves, idiots, political and religious radicals - kooks if youy will? We Yanks come from great stock, at least the preponderance of us do. Phone