Angling Times This Week

[Worms]

Denzil, do you have any further information on this please? Where did this information come from?

Sunday Sport Angling Times?

[Anderoo]

Sunday Sport Angling Times?

 

Well I'm just wondering really, and I'm not having a go at Denzil (or Jeff for that matter) but I do see a lot of the same lines repeated and I wonder where they originate. You seem to have a lot of experience and facts Worms, which is great, and I live somewhere where there are lots of otters and also great fishing, so I just find it all hard to swallow.

 

There seems to be a very large descrepancy between what we're being told and what's actually happening in the real world...

 

If I'm proved to be wrong, I will happily hold my hands up and apologise.

[Worms]

Well I'm just wondering really, and I'm not having a go at Denzil (or Jeff for that matter) but I do see a lot of the same lines repeated and I wonder where they originate. You seem to have a lot of experience and facts Worms, which is great, and I live somewhere where there are lots of otters and also great fishing, so I just find it all hard to swallow.

 

There seems to be a very large descrepancy between what we're being told and what's actually happening in the real world...

 

If I'm proved to be wrong, I will happily hold my hands up and apologise.

As will I. Truth be known I have spent many hours trying to clarify some of the questions posed on the many otter threads. Some of my colleagues think I'm mad and that I should just let it go but, there is so much dis-information out there and a lot of 'bad feeling' towards an animal that, if anything improves our sport and general feelgood factor that I feel I have to try and put the record straight.

 

No ill feeling at all to any of the doubting Thomases out there but I feel a bit pi55ed off when the same questions are asked over and over again with, as you quite rightly pointed out Anderoo, the same phrases coming up time and time again.

 

I mentioned a little pool that I had been invited to fish recently on another thread, with crucians, tench, roach, perch and wild commons. I have fished it once. I missed some lovely takes, got smashed by a fish bigger than I was expecting, landed dozens of small stuff and was amazed at the number of kingfishers, herons and other waterfowl. Later whilst chatting to the elderly lady owner with her gundog at heel she told me about the regular otter family visits and how she liked to watch them taking the perch and roach and scampering off. I didn't even dare broach the subject of fences or other 'problems' on her natural (since mid 18th century) pool.

 

How the other half live eh!

 

Ignore the money grabbing rags spewed out by the media, leave the tackle in the car even! Plan a long walk, take a couple of days off, take a rucksack, tent, billy etc. and dog (even the wife if she's game) and walk a river. You will see life in a new way....................you know it makes sense

[Jeffwill]

Well I'm just wondering really, and I'm not having a go at Denzil (or Jeff for that matter) but I do see a lot of the same lines repeated and I wonder where they originate. You seem to have a lot of experience and facts Worms, which is great, and I live somewhere where there are lots of otters and also great fishing, so I just find it all hard to swallow.

 

There seems to be a very large descrepancy between what we're being told and what's actually happening in the real world...

 

If I'm proved to be wrong, I will happily hold my hands up and apologise.

 

When able I will do a bit of research on this subject and pull some more accurate figures together.

 

Nick is right about otter habitat, the stretches I previously referred to are perfect for them and thats why a few Otters have had a more sustained / localised impact. (Thats not from a Comic but from my own observations over several years).

 

Andrew, you said yourself in your area you have not seen any problems but others in other parts of the country have and are entitled to be concerned.

 

Living in Oxfordshire you are perfectly placed with more water and opportunites, I am envious.

 

Sorry to bring this up but in one of the Comic's this week an article said the E.A is providing funding from rod licence money for some of the worst hit fisheries to put up fencing to keep out otters, mentioned fisheries around Norfolk, which i guess is natural as Nick previously stated most of the otter released was down that part of the country. Co-incidence... as I said, other people in other parts of the country have been affected.

 

The wardens coming round now so I have to switch off...

[Kappa]

There is one thing I just don't understand:

 

Lets assume:

 

1. Otters have suddenly appeared from nowhere

2. Otters are eating all the fish they find leaving none* behind

 

So can anyone tell me what they will eat when there are nomore* fish?

 

(*it is impossible for otters to completely empty a river)

 

When an ecosystem is under pressure the top predators suffer most! To put it simply if otters did decimate anywhere they would starve, they would not breed and they would die out.

 

So lets make another assumption:

 

Otters are spreading rapidly.

 

If this is true it has to be because there is plenty of food for them so they can successfully breed and raise young. So clearly they aren't decimating waters all over the country.

 

So finally let talk worst case scenario.

 

Otters will dent fish stocks within their ranges. But as mentioned above this is self limiting. We all know the fewer the fish a water holds the harder the fishing, an otter can't afford to 'blank' and would starve before it managed to catch every fish.

So even if there is a short term blip in stocks, there will be plenty of food for the next few years fry they will grow and breed etc etc, and things will balance out again within a few years.

 

If any of this is unclear or you simply don't believe me do some research in to predator prey relationships all the info you need is available in quality peer reviewed scientific studies. If you can't access any papers let me know and I'll try to get you a copy. Hearsay and 3rd rate journalism is not fact, nor is writing FACT after each statement.

 

Ok my rant over.

 

Rich

[Anderoo]

quality peer reviewed scientific studies

 

Steady on old boy! FACT.

[Worms]

There is one thing I just don't understand:

 

Lets assume:

 

1. Otters have suddenly appeared from nowhere

2. Otters are eating all the fish they find leaving none* behind

 

So can anyone tell me what they will eat when there are nomore* fish?

 

(*it is impossible for otters to completely empty a river)

 

When an ecosystem is under pressure the top predators suffer most! To put it simply if otters did decimate anywhere they would starve, they would not breed and they would die out.

 

So lets make another assumption:

 

Otters are spreading rapidly.

 

If this is true it has to be because there is plenty of food for them so they can successfully breed and raise young. So clearly they aren't decimating waters all over the country.

 

So finally let talk worst case scenario.

 

Otters will dent fish stocks within their ranges. But as mentioned above this is self limiting. We all know the fewer the fish a water holds the harder the fishing, an otter can't afford to 'blank' and would starve before it managed to catch every fish.

So even if there is a short term blip in stocks, there will be plenty of food for the next few years fry they will grow and breed etc etc, and things will balance out again within a few years.

 

If any of this is unclear or you simply don't believe me do some research in to predator prey relationships all the info you need is available in quality peer reviewed scientific studies. If you can't access any papers let me know and I'll try to get you a copy. Hearsay and 3rd rate journalism is not fact, nor is writing FACT after each statement.

 

Ok my rant over.

 

Rich

Hit the nail on the head mate!

 

Just to add a little more. Let's assume otters have been around since the end of the last ice age C12,000 years ago.

 

Man messes up the ecosystem briefly in the 50's and 60's. Otters suffer a decline for 20-30 years and when they come back they 'suddenly' start eating all of the fish. It just doesn't make sense does it?

[Steve Walker]

I agree with what Richard wrote, although it seems to me that while total biomass might remain the same, the population age structure might settle in a different equilibrium in the absence of an effective top predator.

 

I do wonder whether the absolute size of a specimen really matters, rather than the size relative to what the comics say everyone else is catching - was there less pleasure to be had in taking a 10lb barbel in 1960 than a 15lb one in 2009? People judge their catches by what others catch, and when a weight of fish becomes commonplace it ceases to be a specimen. If the age and size structure of river fish populations changes so that what is considered to be a specimen needs to be reconsidered, does it actually matter?

[Jeffwill]

I agree with what Richard wrote, although it seems to me that while total biomass might remain the same, the population age structure might settle in a different equilibrium in the absence of an effective top predator.

 

I do wonder whether the absolute size of a specimen really matters, rather than the size relative to what the comics say everyone else is catching - was there less pleasure to be had in taking a 10lb barbel in 1960 than a 15lb one in 2009? People judge their catches by what others catch, and when a weight of fish becomes commonplace it ceases to be a specimen. If the age and size structure of river fish populations changes so that what is considered to be a specimen needs to be reconsidered, does it actually matter?

 

The number of times I've heard anglers saying the size of the fish does not matter....saying its all about the experience..... in another thread someone said whether a chub is 5 lb or 3lb, whats 2lb?

 

In my experience the same anglers are usually members of Specimen Groups or travel great distances to fish at private syndicate fisheries only because they hold specimen carp, tench, bream and the lure of a PB.

Edited August 6, 2009 by Jeffwill

[Worms]

I agree with what Richard wrote, although it seems to me that while total biomass might remain the same, the population age structure might settle in a different equilibrium in the absence of an effective top predator.

 

With no predation the age structure of the reproducing animals would tend to become stabilised with one age class dominating. As these animals age, fecundity in the population as a whole may well decrease.

 

In the presence of a predator the age classes tend to suffer predation of older and weaker and younger and weaker plus of course diseased animals with random healthy animals also taken. This tends to stabilise the major breeding stock at the most healthy and fecund level.