Angling Times This Week

[lutra]

....and not just the gills. I have fished the same stream, and remember finding at least one fair-sized fresh-run salmon with a big chunk missing from the shoulder.

We could be double reporting the same fish. I wonder how many reports you could get from a dead barbel on a busy barbel river.

[Dick Dastardly]

More good points Brian.I dont have any experience with fishing for both in rivers that contain both species but do remember the concerns about barbel pushing salmon out of their traditional lies.

 

It would be nice to think that the people involved in the reintroducing would have looked into it in great depth but I dont hold much faith in this.Yes Im sure they looked into would it be feasable in depth but not the knock on affect it could have.A bit of a PR excersise I would have thought with the PR being more imortant to them than the actual sucsess of the venture or any potential problems long term.

[Kappa]

More good points Brian.I dont have any experience with fishing for both in rivers that contain both species but do remember the concerns about barbel pushing salmon out of their traditional lies.

 

It would be nice to think that the people involved in the reintroducing would have looked into it in great depth but I dont hold much faith in this.Yes Im sure they looked into would it be feasable in depth but not the knock on affect it could have.A bit of a PR excersise I would have thought with the PR being more imortant to them than the actual sucsess of the venture or any potential problems long term.

 

On the subject of PR what is the AT hoping to achieve? Can you imagine the headlines in the daily newspapers

"Cruel anglers kill fluffy otters"

 

Most people don't care too much about catch and release because when it comes down to it they just don't really care about fish. However there would be an almighty backlash if anglers culled otters and they would suddenly remember how cruel fishing is and we'd be in alot of hot water. Messing with otters would be a very very stupid thing to do.

 

I'd much sooner share with otters than not be allowed to fish at all!

 

Rich

[gozzer]

Having read several reports by anglers on so called otter kills, it surprises me that few of them mention smaller fish being taken. Is this the case? Or are smaller fish deemed not worth mentioning, being seen as of little value?

Maybe the otters have their own record fish list, and are eager to claim.

 

I'm certainly no expert, but would think that a predator would prefer prey that was most common, and needed to expend the least effort, to gain the maximun value from it's food.

Most preds seem to go for groups of prey where possible, to maximise the chance of a kill. Picking out a weak one from the group. Either that or scavenge on those already dead. So it seems strange to me that our otters seem to be homing in on the biggest and (possibly the strongest) of any group/shoal.

 

I remember when we were discussing the death of 'Traveller', (Was there ever a post mortum on that fish? I never saw any results on the web), it was said that there were only a few barbel in that stretch, (6 or 8, I can't remember). I remember saying at the time, that it didn't sound like a healthy barbel fishery if that was the case.

 

Could the otters be targetting big fish because there are few if any year classes coming through to replenish stocks?

If that's the case, then that needs more urgent attention than the otters.

 

John.

[bingo]

I've got to say that what little respect I had for the AT has all but disappeared in recent months with their constant otter bashing articles. I don't know what they're trying to achieve.

 

Yes, there are more otters than there used to be and, yes, they eat fish but like it or not they're here to stay now. So either get used to it or take up golf. Angling is under far more pressure from other factors.

 

I presume the AT sees themselves as the defenders of anglers and angling but they're way off the mark with this one. Anglers should be looking at constructive ways of protecting fish habitats and looking at the deeper causes of declining fish stocks. Pollution, abstraction, loss of spawning sites, fry refuges etc etc. All the boring stuff, basically............

[Worms]

I presume the AT sees themselves as the defenders of anglers and angling but they're way off the mark with this one. Anglers should be looking at constructive ways of protecting fish habitats and looking at the deeper causes of declining fish stocks. Pollution, abstraction, loss of spawning sites, fry refuges etc etc. All the boring stuff, basically............

That's probably a big part of it it, boring stuff doesn't make for good copy!

[lutra]

I cant help but to think the reintroduction of otters might just be the kind of reality check fishing needs with all the over stocked and unnatural big fish waters we seem to have turned the place into (sweet shops for otters).

 

Having read several reports by anglers on so called otter kills, it surprises me that few of them mention smaller fish being taken. Is this the case? Or are smaller fish deemed not worth mentioning, being seen as of little value?

Maybe the otters have their own record fish list, and are eager to claim.

 

I'm certainly no expert, but would think that a predator would prefer prey that was most common, and needed to expend the least effort, to gain the maximun value from it's food.

Most preds seem to go for groups of prey where possible, to maximise the chance of a kill. Picking out a weak one from the group. Either that or scavenge on those already dead. So it seems strange to me that our otters seem to be homing in on the biggest and (possibly the strongest) of any group/shoal.

 

I remember when we were discussing the death of 'Traveller', (Was there ever a post mortum on that fish? I never saw any results on the web), it was said that there were only a few barbel in that stretch, (6 or 8, I can't remember). I remember saying at the time, that it didn't sound like a healthy barbel fishery if that was the case.

 

Could the otters be targetting big fish because there are few if any year classes coming through to replenish stocks?

If that's the case, then that needs more urgent attention than the otters.

 

John.

Will otters make any difference to naturally stocked waters/smaller fish? I don't see otters in any different light to pike.

[Jeffwill]

No, I'm saying that it is less likely for healthy barbel to be targetted by otters when there is a lot of easier to catch food available.

 

Predators, due to the need to chase their prey work on an 'effort expended versus reward gained' approach. As a rule larger healthy fish have greater reserves of energy for longer bursts of sustained speed and are more likely to escape a pursuing otter.

 

The energy required by an otter to chase and catch a healthy large barbel (with the risk that it might not succeeed) would be much greater than that required to catch a 1lb fish or several 4oz or 8oz fish. Smaller fish are more likely to hide in weed or under another obstruction. Otters are well adapted for winkling their prey out of such hiding places. The results of many research papers indicate that smaller fish are the otter's most widely caught prey.

 

IF otters are responsible for "decimating" (a very precise word for non scientific observations) barbel and carp populations in UK rivers and ponds then I suggest there may be some underlying issue that is affecting the health of the fish or, that the balance of these waters is upset by another (probably manmade) factor.

 

Given the massive number of signals in some rivers I'm surprised that any fish are taken at all by otters in such waters!

 

Your particular chub problem may be just down to the fact that the fish have just died of old age. Chub have a lifespan of approximately 10-12 years which might go some way to explaining the disappearance of a shoal of similarly sized fish that you have been observing for the past 10 years.

 

As a chub angler though, you know how mobile chub can be and perhaps the fish just aren't in the spot that they have (coincidentally) been in on previous occasions.

 

I would also have thought that other fish would have filled the gap as others in the shoal died off.

 

Have you found any fish carcasses or seen otters taking chub?

 

Nick

 

 

Hi Nick,

 

Previously disturbered an otter under a bank which left two freshly killed chub carcasses, fish in the 4lb bracket. I had seen otters repeatedly before but this disturbed me the most.... as it appeared they could catch chub easily as it had two. Plus I had seen catches gradually reduce to almost zero.

 

But....to check out the stretch for an up to date report for you, I went up yesterday evening and found a few chub though I fished late evening into dusk, unusual for me. The fish were definitely smaller but I was relieved to find some there. I caught 8 chub, couple of dace and trout in three hours, not climbing up the rod but as I say, I was glad to find a few fish there.

 

Here's a question for you.....how many pounds of fish would an otter need to eat per day to stay

healthy?

 

Thanks Jeff.

[Worms]

Hi Nick,

 

Previously disturbered an otter under a bank which left two freshly killed chub carcasses, fish in the 4lb bracket. I had seen otters repeatedly before but this disturbed me the most.... as it appeared they could catch chub easily as it had two. Plus I had seen catches gradually reduce to almost zero.

 

But....to check out the stretch for an up to date report for you, I went up yesterday evening and found a few chub though I fished late evening into dusk, unusual for me. The fish were definitely smaller but I was relieved to find some there. I caught 8 chub, couple of dace and trout in three hours, not climbing up the rod but as I say, I was glad to find a few fish there.

 

Here's a question for you.....how many pounds of fish would an otter need to eat per day to stay

healthy?

 

Thanks Jeff.

Good to see you are catching again.

 

Otter food requirements........well wildlife trust figures estimate approximately 10% of the body weight. Fully grown otters weigh approximately 7kg (female) to 10kg (male).

 

A report by the Central Science Laboratory in 2002 headed by a Dr A D M Hart calculated estimated daily food requirements for all of the native UK mammals. According to that highly researched study (so I'll go along with it), an otter requires approximately 14% of it's bodyweight in food a day so, a 7kg otter would require approximately 1kg of fish a day. Requirements would vary according to weather, sex, mineral and vitamin requirements etc.

 

It sounds a lot but otters have large territories and the food requirements of the Hart study were based entirely on fish. Otters also take birds, small mammals, crayfish and amphibians (especially during the spring and it has been my privilege to see otters taking frogs and crunching them up noisily within 10 feet of my hide!).

 

To put it in perspective a heron takes approximately 20%, a goosander approximately 30% and a kingfisher approximately 50% of their body weights in fish! I'm not too worried about Kingfishers but a family of hungry goosanders could (and do) take a lot of fish a day. Lots of goosanders around these days as well, they're increasing rapidly on the Wye and Teme.

 

Regards, Nick.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Worms

[Jeffwill]

Good to see you are catching again.

 

Otter food requirements........well wildlife trust figures estimate approximately 10% of the body weight. Fully grown otters weigh approximately 7kg (female) to 10kg (male).

 

A report by the Central Science Laboratory in 2002 headed by a Dr A D M Hart calculated estimated daily food requirements for all of the native UK mammals. According to that highly researched study (so I'll go along with it), an otter requires approximately 14% of it's bodyweight in food a day so, a 7kg otter would require approximately 1kg of fish a day. Requirements would vary according to weather, sex, mineral and vitamin requirements etc.

 

It sounds a lot but otters have large territories and the food requirements of the Hart study were based entirely on fish. Otters also take birds, small mammals, crayfish and amphibians (especially during the spring and it has been my privilege to see otters taking frogs and crunching them up noisily within 10 feet of my hide!).

 

To put it in perspective a heron takes approximately 20%, a goosander approximately 30% and a kingfisher approximately 50% of their body weights in fish! I'm not too worried about Kingfishers but a family of hungry goosanders could (and do) take a lot of fish a day. Lots of goosanders around these days as well, they're increasing rapidly on the Wye and Teme.

 

Regards, Nick.

 

 

Hi Nick,

 

So a heron weighes 5 - 8 pounds, a goosander around 5 lbs and a kingfisher merely 35 - 40 grammes. Whats the comparison?

 

A heron nips away in the margins, the goosander is a problem especially for the game fish as they take a lot of small fish / parr and as for the kingfisher, he takes very very small fish.

 

The fecundity of fish allows and encourages large scale predation on fry / small fish but obviously is reliant on a head of mature fish to spawn and keep the cycle going. I would say the cormorant is more of a problem than the three put together.

 

If we only had predators that took juvenile fish I would not be typing this out now but I just dont see what comparison you are trying to draw with the Otter, a large mammal..... which takes fish of all sizes, bigger the better.

 

A single pair of otters, male and female using the figures given above (and which I dont doubt unless told otherwise) would eat 14% of 17kg = 2.38 kilo's per day or 868 kilo's / 1911 lbs per year. Thats just a single pair per year, totally forgetting their breeding cycle / young. I suppose thats why it suits the purpose to say they have a territory of 25 miles of river. Does that mean the whole of the River Wye, 157 miles long... only has 6 pairs of otters? Naturally, this leads onto the question of just how many pairs of otters are there on the River Wye? Or other Rivers come to that.

 

Then add in partially eating their kill. Now I always used to think otters were hard to find sign of because they completely consumed their catch, starting by chewing off the tail first in case they drop the fish when it struggles, thats probably also why anglers catch fish with parts of the caudal fin missing - it got away but is now partially disabled for later chases. The otter then eats the rest, the lot head to tail but no...a number of anglers find partially eaten carcasses and a quick look on the web shows that in studies otters are shown to routinely leave a large part of the kill, after taking the favoured organs / viscera area.

 

Therefore the total fish kill poundage wise, will be much much greater than the above figure of 1911 lb's per pair per year (excluding young).

 

Also the claim that they will not expend energy catching healthy bigger fish is questionable. If they can catch them then they will... as they will receive a bigger meal for the extra energy expended.

 

Glad you enjoyed watching the otter eating the frog close up, fantastic being so close to an animal that has such acute senses. I understand why you get a buzz out of it. Do you run Otter field trips for customers?

 

Hopefully the figures above allow a better overall picture for contributors to AN, though figures for a breeding pair and their young, plus approximate numbers of otters on each river surveyed (presumably compared with otters numbers originally introduced... so expansion can be monitored) would be far better again and I think would raise a few eyebrows.

 

Kind Regards

Jeff