Guns - is the UK going the wrong way?

[corydoras]

Wordbender:

Wordbender:

A gun however is in fact, a weapon by design. It's sole purpose in life is to shoot things, mostly people.

With respect, Andy - that is utter rubbish.

 

A knife is 'a weapon by design', but we have lots of those in our homes don't we? Many more people are killed and injured by knives, so do we ban knives?

 

The vast majority of guns in the UK are for sporting use, either game shooting or targets of some sort. These are simply a means of partaking in a hobby, sport or pastime, just the same as bicycles, golf clubs and cricket bats - all of which have been misused and have caused serious injury and death.

 

Do you really think that those who shoot people would become non-violent if guns were somehow spirited away? Of course they wouldn't - they'd just use something else to attack people.

 

It's cost this country untold millions to ban legally held pistols, money that would have been better spent fighting the real threat to our safety - criminals and the ILLEGAL use of guns.

 

The shooting sports matter greatly to those that take part in them, just as angling does. Beware of sweeping statements, Andy. Your simplistic 'no guns, no shootings' argument could easily be applied to something that matters to you.

Got to disagree here mate. A handgun is a tool designed for shooting people. It was never designed for anything else. Sure you can shoot at targets with it, but that is just practising for the real thing.

[RobStubbs]

"Got to disagree here mate. A handgun is a tool designed for shooting people. It was never designed for anything else. Sure you can shoot at targets with it, but that is just practising for the real thing."

 

What a load of tosh <with respect>. It matters not what a gun was designed for, it is what it is used for that matters.

 

It is also fair to say that the vast majority of guns used for target shooting are wholly unsuitable for anything but shooting at a paper target.

 

I do a lot of competitive shooting but to suggest I'm 'practising for the real' thing is just lunacy and shows you have no appreciation as to what competitive shooting involves.

 

Rob.

 

[ 03. August 2004, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: RobStubbs ]

[Guest allibee]

This argument of whether a gun can shoot anything more than paper targets is complete rubbish, with all due respect

 

My **** of a nephew currently resides in Parkhurst courtesy of her majesty. He is just 20 and is in the hardcore block even though a first time offender - and I am NOT sticking up for him - like I said, a complete ****

 

What did he do? well, he lost his job/partner and baby and started taking a few drugs. then he didn't have any money for more drugs, or a gun, so he went into his stepfathers loft and found his stepfathers UNLICENCED WW2 flare gun, with no ammo. he held up local 7/11 stores (Alldays etc)for literally pennies ... but it was the INTENT that was the crime

 

So, as I say, how the firearm gets used is totally irrelevant. Most crimes don't involve discharge of the weapon ... it's the threat/terror factor and yes, if i'd laid my hands on him I would have knocked his block off

 

[ 03. August 2004, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: allibee ]

[Cranfield]

Whilst you keep referring to your nephew in unflattering terms, you still seem to be blaming a WW2 flare gun, for the fact that he is in prison.

 

If the flare gun hadn't been there, would he have gone off for chat with a Counsellor ?

I don't think so, he would have found a toy gun, a knife, a screwdriver, a baseball bat, a hammer, or some other "innocent" implement.

All of which can become fearsome, in the right circumstances.

 

Its time people took responsibility for their actions, not blamed inanimate objects.

 

Most of the gun crime in the USA is bad man, on bad man.

The general public are rarely involved.

It has become the same in the UK, where handgun killings invariably involve drugs dealing.

[Guest allibee]

I think I made it PERFECTLY clear his situation is his own doing! I could not care less where he is and you know NOTHING about him to know whether he would have found another inanimate object and as such your remarks are totally inaccurate bordering on the know-it-all ... which you obviously don't

 

"I don't think so, he would have found a toy gun, a knife, a screwdriver, a baseball bat, a hammer, or some other "innocent" implement" ...

 

The opportunity for a weapon presented itself, in the form of a WW2 flare pistol, and not any other weapon at all. As he is an ex chef I can assure you he had a VERY lethal set of knives which he *chose* not to use.

 

T.wat ... was the unflattering term

 

p.s Why would someone have a consellor if they are not an addict? Again you assume too much

 

[ 03. August 2004, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: allibee ]

[northern mark]

So it's the guns fault, if there were no guns there would be hardly any crime, no grannys would get beat up for a couple of quid, no school kids would get stabbed, etc, etc.

 

Not aimed at you allibee yours just happens to be the post above this one.

 

This country seems to have a few idiots with a rambo facination, a number of years ago a nutcase got his rambo guns and went on a shooting spree killing a number of people, I believe his guns were illegal semi automatic weapons (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) but no gun ban came in.

 

Another idiot decided to have his shooting practice at a school with a legal gun (again if I'm wrong......) and because there was a general election looming two spineless individuals agreed that banning handguns was the way to go instead of tackling the real problem.

 

The majority of gun crime in this country is done with illegal weapons, buy, steal or find a gun commit a crime get rid of gun.

 

Mark

 

Learn to spell young man

 

[ 03. August 2004, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: northern mark ]

[Chris Goddard]

allibee:

 

p.s Why would someone have a consellor if they are not an addict? Again you assume too much

Hang on a minute! Am I missing something here?? Where was there any reference to a councellor?? (I take it that is what you refer to? and that it was a slip of the finger in your attempt to reply to Cranfield whilst attempting to control your ire?)

Your opinion is just that, your opinion!! I am of the opinion that banning handguns has made the situation a lot worse that it has EVER been.

I would quite gladly put every last person convicted of any crime where a gun is used up against a wall and let them have all six chambers. NO!! It wouldn't make me as bad as them at all!! I would be doing it to show them and all there cronies the error of their ways!! If it put off ONE person from doing the same it would be in my humble opinion well worth the price of the bullets!! For any other attacks with a weapon? How about the Birch!! Worked on many people when I was growing up!! I don't remember anyone who was birched standing up and saying "Mmmmmm that was fun!! I think I will just go out and do that again as I really did enjoy it!! NO, instead the bleeding heart liberals and the PC brigade would rather send them to jail where they are invariably treated a whole lot better than there actual victims!! Even in jail there is always some d1ckhead standing up for their "Human Rights" what bl00dy rights!!?? They gave all those up when they committed the act!! It's really quite simple is it not? If you can't do the time, don't do the crime!!! That is why I have never been convicted of a crime!! I do NOT wish to be locked up at all!!! Others quite obviously do!! I don't wish to take non-prescribed drugs!! Others do and the same goes for them!! If you can't do the time!!........

So please don't come calling any of the people who I call my friends on here. Put forward you ideas and be prepared to discuss them, yes! Be forthright in those views! YES!! But do NOT allow yourself to take personal digs at people because they do not agree with what you have to say!!

[Andy Macfarlane]

I’m glad that the phrase 'Gun-Crime' came into it. Whilst the person behind the weapon is the cause, guns are a completely different ‘ballpark’ to knives, baseball bats or any of the other 'weapons' mentioned.

 

A gun is a different thing to a knife or a bat. If someone points a knife at you, you may well be fairly calm about the whole affair. It's quite unlikely you'd have the same level of calm with a gun pointed at you. The same point could be made of bats etc.

 

That's why penalties given out at courts up and down the nation are set to reflect that idea. If I point a bat at someone, I can expect to get out of jail that same night, perhaps with a caution. If I point a gun at someone, I can expect to go to jail and that is correct.

 

A bat is a bat. A gun is a lethal weapon. That is the difference here. The police don't roll out in force with semi-automatic guns and threaten to blow your head off if you shake a bat at the local shopkeeper. No, that only happens when there’s the possibility of you discharging a lethal weapon in public. A gun is ‘lethal’ full stop. It’s designed to be a killing machine.

 

How any of you cannot see the difference here is beyond me. I fully aware that crime will always exist whether guns are used or not, but I'd still rather have it limited to bats and knives, which are, whether anyone likes it or not, designed for completely different purposes than guns. People require knives to eat, make meals, cut things etc. and as such, they will always have thier place. The same level of requirement cannot be said for guns. I've never needed one. Does anyone?

 

[ 03. August 2004, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: Andy Macfarlane ]

[Cranfield]

allibee, I was wrong to "personalise" my comments, by referring to your Nephew, for that I apologise.

 

I still believe that the fault lies with the individual, not any weapon that they can get access to.

[RobStubbs]

Andy,

I think everyone would rather crimes were limited to 'friendly' weapons but it seems to me unlikely that the criminal element of society are going to hand over all their guns and swap to something nicer.

 

You have never needed a gun and neither have I but the same wouldn't be said for our military. And if guns weren't available then how do you expect them to become good, safe shots ?

 

The other thing is that having legally held firearms and gun clubs, is that it shows people what they do in a controlled and safe environment. That has to be worth something rather than letting them learn on the street what they can do ?

 

Lets get things in perspective; Until the government takes gun crime seriously then it will continue to get worse. Removing guns from those of us who legally hold them will do zero for gun crime or possibly even make it worse.

 

Rob.