Roll over bite indicators

[Sportsman]

I am trying to get my head around the principle behind these.

As I understand it they were developed to fish for species that were sensitive to resistance and so they offer a low resistance.

Now I can understand that you can move the counterbalance weight so that the arm attached to the line is effectively weightless and would offer little or no resistance to a taking fish, but then, how does that work as a drop back indicator when there is no effective weight on the line?

Conversely, if you increase the effective weight of the arm on the line how does it offer low resistance, the fish would still have to lift it so how is it better than a bobbin?

The other thing is that many species are not only sensitive to resistance but particularly to changes in resistance. As the fish raises the arm to the point where the arm releases the line wouldn't there be a change in resistance?

Explanations would be appreciated.

[Phone]

Sportsman,

 

The reason there are no responses is because there is no answer. Should I understand the question correctly (if there is a question) that's the dumbest thing I ever heard of.

 

Maybe they work on ESP?

 

Phone

[Anderoo]

I think the answer is to use a free running rig with a heavy lead, to avoid drop backs in the first place.

 

Adding weight to the arm could be to just counter any flow or tow that's present; it wouldn't offer any increased resistance to a fish.

[Sportsman]

How does that work as a drop back indicator when there is no effective weight on the line?

 

How does it offer low resistance, the fish would still have to lift it so how is it better than a bobbin?

 

As the fish raises the arm to the point where the arm releases the line wouldn't there be a change in resistance?

 

Phone, as you didn't seem to understand the above are questions (the clue is the question mark at the end )

 

If you don't know what a rollover indicator is this might help

 

 

These are very popular with eel anglers because they are said to offer no resistance or no change in resistance. i wondered how that would be the case.

[Dick Dastardly]

I also have doubts about the effectiveness of the drop back indication....in "normal" circumstances Dave as like you say if its balanced to give least resistance there just wont be enough weight on the head to do so (well at least if they are set up in the "nose down" attitude as shown in the video. However that's not really the reason that a lot of us have gone over to them and although Ive not used mine enough to be sure they MAY be ok if set up in a "nose up" position with the heavier weight on the nose.But I'm not that worried if they dont as I dont really want them for pike or zander fishing or with rigs where "drop backs" could be expected.

 

What they were originally designed for and indeed what I want them for is eel fishing. The main purpose of their design is to be able to do away with a line clip yet still enable you to fish with an open spool/bait runner.The reason behind getting rid of the line clip is the dramatic (although only momentary) change of resistance when the line pulls out of a clip.For some reason (as I indeed found last season) eels have a major problem with this and often eject the bait. This is why for most situations/rigs the good old "Fairy Liquid" top bottle has remained popular with eel anglers. However on some rigs you simply cant fish a bobbin on a drop. The CD type rig that is so good for fishing off bottom baits and avoiding deep hooking is a prime example.As it incorporates a sunk float that needs to be kept under tension a bobbin on a drop would just keep getting pulled up and the float wouldn't be in the right position ie it would keep pulling up right. (With me so far? if not say and I will do some drawings)

 

With the "Rollover" you can balance it so there is no change of resistance when the line is taken or when it releases and goes to open bail/free spool. The reason there is no change is that the line does not have to "pull" away from the indicator as the indicator actually lifts off the line when it reaches a set upwards angle. This is achieved rather cleverly by the simple placing of a couple of steel ball bearings in the hollow tube that the indicator arm is made from.Once the arm has lifted to a certain position (above horizontal) the bearings simply roll down to the rear end of the tube changing the balance of the arm and hey presto it lifts (or "Rolls over") of the line.

 

With the CD rigs being fished under such tension and being free running all indications (even if the fish comes towards you) will be "runs". Any clearer?

[Mark7]

How does that work as a drop back indicator when there is no effective weight on the line?

 

How does it offer low resistance, the fish would still have to lift it so how is it better than a bobbin?

 

As the fish raises the arm to the point where the arm releases the line wouldn't there be a change in resistance?

 

Phone, as you didn't seem to understand the above are questions (the clue is the question mark at the end )

 

If you don't know what a rollover indicator is this might help

 

 

These are very popular with eel anglers because they are said to offer no resistance or no change in resistance. i wondered how that would be the case.

 

I agree that there is a change in resistance when the rollover releases, and also that if you increase the forward weight on the rollover to detect dropbacks then it offers increased resistance. I have used rollovers for around 5 years now (my first set were a home made affair after Barry explained how the prototype was made. When he started producing them I bought 4). The advantage over a bobbin is that once the rollover releases there is no resistance to a taking fish- a bobbin would remain on the line and clatter around. The advantage over drop offs is the absence of a clip, and consequently no increased resistance as the indicator releases. Anderoo's comments are spot on-at least a 3oz lead with a run ring ensures that drop backs do not occur, and the lead stays put when a fish picks up the bait. Using braid and a very short trace of max 6" helps too. We have mucked about with rollovers and lead sizes at length, both on the lawn and in the water, and the resistance felt at the hook is very small, even with the weight moved forward to increase drop back detection. Regarding change of resistance, I have experimented with eel runs using circle hooks on an "easy" water by allowing the run to commence on a rollover and open bail arm, then engaging the bail arm and letting the baitrunner take over. The eels in all cases continued to run (tried this around a dozen times over two sessions before I got bored with it). Eels do drop baits frequently, but I am not sure that it is to do with resistance. It is, I think, just a characteristic of their cautious feeding habits at times. Many of the so called nuisance fish that worry baits are big eels checking them out, I am sure. I have had many big eels on touch leger tactics when twitches have occured, and proper runs have been absent.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Mark7

[Phone]

Sportsman,

 

Yeah, I've seen them. Isn't that the dumbest thing you ever heard of? They move without resistance? I still contend, it must be ESP.

 

Phone

[Sportsman]

I also have doubts about the effectiveness of the drop back indication....in "normal" circumstances Dave as like you say if its balanced to give least resistance there just wont be enough weight on the head to do so (well at least if they are set up in the "nose down" attitude as shown in the video. However that's not really the reason that a lot of us have gone over to them and although Ive not used mine enough to be sure they MAY be ok if set up in a "nose up" position with the heavier weight on the nose.But I'm not that worried if they dont as I dont really want them for pike or zander fishing or with rigs where "drop backs" could be expected.

 

What they were originally designed for and indeed what I want them for is eel fishing. The main purpose of their design is to be able to do away with a line clip yet still enable you to fish with an open spool/bait runner.The reason behind getting rid of the line clip is the dramatic (although only momentary) change of resistance when the line pulls out of a clip.For some reason (as I indeed found last season) eels have a major problem with this and often eject the bait. This is why for most situations/rigs the good old "Fairy Liquid" top bottle has remained popular with eel anglers. However on some rigs you simply cant fish a bobbin on a drop. The CD type rig that is so good for fishing off bottom baits and avoiding deep hooking is a prime example.As it incorporates a sunk float that needs to be kept under tension a bobbin on a drop would just keep getting pulled up and the float wouldn't be in the right position ie it would keep pulling up right. (With me so far? if not say and I will do some drawings)

 

With the "Rollover" you can balance it so there is no change of resistance when the line is taken or when it releases and goes to open bail/free spool. The reason there is no change is that the line does not have to "pull" away from the indicator as the indicator actually lifts off the line when it reaches a set upwards angle. This is achieved rather cleverly by the simple placing of a couple of steel ball bearings in the hollow tube that the indicator arm is made from.Once the arm has lifted to a certain position (above horizontal) the bearings simply roll down to the rear end of the tube changing the balance of the arm and hey presto it lifts (or "Rolls over") of the line.

 

With the CD rigs being fished under such tension and being free running all indications (even if the fish comes towards you) will be "runs". Any clearer?

 

Aha, I didn't know about the ball bearings. That makes a bit more sense.

I take the point about a heavy weight being used to avoid drop backs but that would surely apply to any type of swinger or bobbin.

I was trying to see what advantage the rollover had over my Euroswingers.

Budgie, I will be trying to do quite a bit of catfish fishing this year. My first attempt will be on a local lake that contains cats up to around 40lb and initially I will be using heavy carp gear. The reels I have in mind are not baitrunners so I am looking for something that will let me use them without line clips as I have read that cats can be sensitive to resistance, or at least changes in resistance. Do you think it is worth while investing in a set of these?

[Rob Ward]

I agree that there is a change in resistance when the rollover releases, and also that if you increase the forward weight on the rollover to detect dropbacks then it offers increased resistance. I have used rollovers for around 5 years now (my first set were a home made affair after Barry explained how the prototype was made. When he started producing them I bought 4). The advantage over a bobbin is that once the rollover releases there is no resistance to a taking fish- a bobbin would remain on the line and clatter around. The advantage over drop offs is the absence of a clip, and consequently no increased resistance as the indicator releases. Anderoo's comments are spot on-at least a 3oz lead with a run ring ensures that drop backs do not occur, and the lead stays put when a fish picks up the bait. Using braid and a very short trace of max 6" helps too. We have mucked about with rollovers and lead sizes at length, both on the lawn and in the water, and the resistance felt at the hook is very small, even with the weight moved forward to increase drop back detection. Regarding change of resistance, I have experimented with eel runs using circle hooks on an "easy" water by allowing the run to commence on a rollover and open bail arm, then engaging the bail arm and letting the baitrunner take over. The eels in all cases continued to run (tried this around a dozen times over two sessions before I got bored with it). Eels do drop baits frequently, but I am not sure that it is to do with resistance. It is, I think, just a characteristic of their cautious feeding habits at times. Many of the so called nuisance fish that worry baits are big eels checking them out, I am sure. I have had many big eels on touch leger tactics when twitches have occured, and proper runs have been absent.

 

Open, honest and informative post - thanks Mark

[Dick Dastardly]

Dave if your live baiting I wouldn't bother as they dont seem to have a problem with resistance when they hit a live. With other baits though (and I can only base this on UK waters) we allways used to be worried about resistance. Whether this was justified or not I dont really know. Most of my mates and I used simple sloping needles with monkey climbers on them (original homemade Rick Gibbinson style rather than the later small bore production types) These were set just behind the spool so open bail could be used. Not sure what I mean just say and I will post a sketch.