Dear believer

[barry luxton]

na the spanish had that outfit as a uniform in the amarda before we sunk 'em.

[Vagabond]

Only just found this thread - interesting reading, and most illuminating even when off topic - do all these head-bangers realise how self-revealing their posts are ?

 

Thanks, Rob for bringing it back to topic.

 

1. Me too. I didn't have religion foisted upon me, thank goodness, but my parents thought it their solemn duty to beat me on a regular basis for such heinous crimes as coming home ten minutes late, or getting my clothes dirty,

 

Yep, got a lot of that - fishing was responsible for much of it! Lateness, dirty and wet clothes, truancy, association with "common" boys etc etc.

 

But from age eight it got worse when my parents joined a lunatic fringe religious sect and I was seen as "untheocratic" and later, as "demonised" Their religion dissaproved of all the things a boy might wish to do.

 

It became clear to me that religion can rapidly become a mental illness. Fortunately the examples of the parents of my mates enabled me to see what a "normal" life should be like. Doubly fortunately, a year later, my grandparents removed me from that environment until I was eleven.

 

It was not easy , as an eight-year-old to realise one's parents were mad. Not just my opinion either - the neighbours thought my parents "cranky" and the medical profession eventually (but years too late) "sectioned" my mother.

 

Did it harm me ? Can't be sure (needs an external observer and a control) but I hope not. Once having escaped the parental home, I just got on with my life. Now retired from an academic career but still a director in the family business that Norma and I started, Six children - all in good jobs, ten grandchildren - six in jobs, one at University and three still at school. (and all, despite Sportsman's quote re the recipients of violence passing it on) achieved without beating any of them.

 

Do you think any permanent harm came to you aas a result, Rob?

 

 

 

 

 

 

2. This only stopped on the day I was old enough and big enough to look my drunken "father" in the face, as he lurched towards me rolling up his sleeves, and assure him that he would die if he continued with the current course of action. Like all true cowards, he backed off and barely spoke to me from that moment on.

 

Snap - I was returned to my parents as I had won a scholarship to the local grammar school, too far from my grandparents to make attendance practical. In those times (immediate post WWII), a grammar school place was seen as the opportunity of a lifetime (I was the very first boy from our village to gain one)

 

My father was a drunk also - not on alcohol, but on that self-righteousness that only religious bigots know - and that form of drunkess persists 24/7

 

So at age 11 I was back - but not to square one - just like you, I had put up my fists when threatened with a beating.. ...and my father and I never spoke again either. Like you said , Rob, a true coward. My mother continued to promise me eternal damnation with hellfire. Used to remember the latter in later years when pursuing my other hobby of restoring, firing and driving steam locomotives - there is something about feeding a roaring fiery furnace in a 9F 2-10-0 at full regulator that reminds one of imps with little pronged forks.

[Vagabond]

i had always wanted a great beard like captain birdseye or our own Vagabond

 

A quite legitimate "off topic" diversion

 

Delighted to learn I am a Chestertian role-model

 

And I've always wondered why men grow pubic hair on their face just to prove they can

 

Actually I don't so much mind a full set it's the silly little taches that I find strange. Neither use nor ornament.

 

Didn't grow beard and tache just because I could, but to save time and money

 

Ever thought what a lifetime's (well, post-14 anyway) supply of razor blades, shaving cream, and brushes might cost ?

 

Enough to buy a lot of fishing line

 

Ever added up how much of your life you waste on shaving ?

 

...and there are fringe benefiits to badgers also.

 

...and a beard and tache is not just for filtering shell out of your turtle soup - it filters birds too.

 

Birds who dislike beards are also afraid of spiders, spend too much time and money on makeup and hair care, expect to be bought expensive bouquets, expensive clothes, expensive jewellery, expensive cocktails, paint their toenails green, always leave the Telegraph rumpled even when they only glance at it, complain about the positioning of the toilet seat, object to maggots in the fridge, and litter the house with glossy mags about "celebrities".

 

Some conceal these faults when on the pull, and it may take an expensive date or so to find out - whereas your beard does it all for you, and at a cost-cutting and time-saving distance too.

 

A beard is the sign of a practical man.

[robtherake]

Only just found this thread - interesting reading, and most illuminating even when off topic - do all these head-bangers realise how self-revealing their posts are ?

 

Thanks, Rob for bringing it back to topic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you think any permanent harm came to you as a result, Rob?

Yes, I have deep psychological scarring and have spent a lifetime coming to terms with it in various ways, which, for a long time, included drugs and alcohol. My parents and sister - sociopaths all - formed a little cabal with me firmly on the outside.

Looking back, I was probably lucky to survive it - I learnt how to keep out of their way and minimise the risk of mental and physical abuse.

Edited August 20, 2012 by robtherake

[Vagabond]

Yes, I have deep psychological scarring and have spent a lifetime coming to terms with it

 

....Looking back, I was probably lucky to survive it

 

Sorry to hear that, mate, 'cos I have an inkling of how tough it must have been. Hope life is treating you better now.

 

What saved me, I think was a sheer bloody-minded determination to go fishing, no matter what, and a determination that I was not going to be like THEM (as I categorised the whole damned sect)

[robtherake]

Sorry to hear that, mate, 'cos I have an inkling of how tough it must have been. Hope life is treating you better now.

 

What saved me, I think was a sheer bloody-minded determination to go fishing, no matter what, and a determination that I was not going to be like THEM (as I categorised the whole damned sect)

 

Thanks for the sympathy. I don't generally talk about it, but there was so much glib talk on this thread about what constitutes cruelty or abuse that I thought a real-life example might add some sort of perspective.

 

I dread to think how many other kids have suffered in silence - if the truth were known I'm sure it would change the statistics by a considerable amount, but who really wants to admit the kind of things that the abused are forced to live through.

 

Like you, I spent a lot of time outdoors, only coming "home" when I had to. It gave me an abiding love for the natural world and all it's inhabitants.

[Emma two]

there was so much glib talk on this thread about what constitutes cruelty or abuse that I thought a real-life example might add some sort of perspective.

 

 

I am truly sorry to read of the type of abuse that you have suffered, I am repulsed at any type of unwarranted violence and bullying, so you have my sympathy too. I don’t have anything to compare from my own childhood, I was sometimes hit as punishment, but as someone has pointed out earlier, that’s the way it was in those days, i was a child in the 50s and 60s. It served to ensure that I went on to never strike my own children, there is no need for it at all. It is good that the thread now appears to be on a sensible footing.

 

However the mental torment inflicted upon some children from a religious source is horrible too and I don’t think that it’s ‘glib’ to point this out. Of course for many of us the religious teaching is gentle and we may later ‘opt out’, that was generally the case for me, although I was twice hit with a stick by adults (school teachers) for not singing their Christian songs with enough enthusiasm in morning assembly.

Sadly many don’t get off so lightly. Children are taught the same things over and over: Jesus died for us, Jesus loves us, God loves us, we should fear God, good people go to heaven, bad people go to hell, not believing is a sin, God made the world, faith is good, God moves in mysterious ways, every good person believes this, Around and around go the stories. If you were given the whole thing as an adult in possession of your faculties there is only a small chance you would accept it. Adults are often brought into religion after seeking a way out of terrible problems such as addiction, poverty, or having their world turned upside down by contact with the wider world. The number of well-adjusted adults who follow a new religions is relatively small. The well adjusted have no need for a religion? So they screw you up when you’re a child or catch you when you are grown up but very vulnerable.

 

 

 

Using childish openness to imprint and impart superstitions is wrong, to use this innocence and vulnerability to instill fear and guilt goes beyond wrong, it’s evil.

You can teach children manners and morals without needing to frighten them with a vision of hell or the concept of the all-seeing invisible wizard in the sky. Happily you have survived and found a way to deal with your abuse, you were strong enough, not all children are. You thought to contribute your ‘real life’ example, which is valid and decent of you to do so. However I too can bring real examples of how young people can be driven literally insane by the fear of the eternal lake of fire (hell) and are subject to terrible bullying by religious adults (and other children).

 

For example young man ‘A’ (16) ‘came out’ as gay to his church youth group leader. These people are apparently not obliged to conform to a code of ethics like those of us in secular youth work are. The adult, who should have been someone to turn to in confidence, stood him in front of the whole group, told them what he had said and initiated a group prayer to ‘save’ him followed by a harsh lecture about how god would hate him and the eternal fires of hell awaited. He didn’t survive to adulthood.

‘J’ was a nice 15 year old girl, and a committed Christian. Her anguish over the tensions between her sexuality and her religion was too much for her to bear, she did physically survive her significant self harming (broken CD cases are often the ‘weapon of choice’ for young people), but she became and remains mentally broken.

In those days I sat on a committee which included a Christian vicar his words were ‘they can either be queer or they can be Christian, they cannot be both’. This representative of ‘god’s love’ was quite sure that gay young people would spend their eternity burning in agony.

By all means teach the children about all the religions, but don’t ask them to commit to any of them until they are at an adult age of consent to do so.