Does this make you uncomfortable ?

[corydoras]

Hmm, OK I'll accept that then, I stand corrected, but it is still a rejection of the Germ Theory of Disease.

[corydoras]

I know we have done this before but when I was at school I tried REALLY hard to do this "born again" thing, All my mates were doing it. Every time there was a meeting (Scriptures Union) there would be one or two more going up and giving testimony and saying the redemption prayer and I felt nothing, zilch, and according to them it was my fault, I just wasn't trying hard enough. Every week the testimonies got more ridiculous, some kids were claiming they saw cherubs, one even said she had a visitation from Gabriel.

 

In the end, the last time I went I was looking around me and I just thought to myself that these folks were just a bunch of loonies, I never went back. When I went to secondary school and started to study Physics, Chemistry and specially Biology the less sense religion made. When I found out that Judaism, Christianity and Islam were just three different versions of the same story, then it made less sense. If there is only One True God why does he need three religions? Why does this supreme being not come and sort this mess out. Why does he do nothing for 200,000 years, come down and bugger about with some tribe in bronze age tribe in the Middle East 4,000 years ago, then come back disguised as his son who is really him?

 

I just don't get any of it. Do you do communion John, do you take part in what is basically symbolic cannibalism? Do you believe in the Virgin Birth? If you do then you believe in a mistranslation from Hebrew. One thing that impresses me about Islam is that you cannot be a Muslim until you can read the Koran in it's original form. I wish Christians were the same. I wish you could only be considered a "real" Christian once you can read it in the original Hebrew and Greek, but I guess that would not help too much with the recruitment of new members, most people are way too lazy to learn to read another language, and ancient Greek is very hard to read.

 

Here is my position in a nutshell.

There was no Adam and Eve, there never was a first single pair of Homo sapiens, evolution just does not work that way and evolution is a fact. We understand evolution better than we understand Gravity.

 

No Adam and Eve, no original sin, no need for redemption, no need for a saviour. Outside of the Bible there is no mention of Jesus.

 

Modern particle physics tell us that there is no such thing as "nothing" so the old "you can't" get something from nothing argument is now defunct too. They have a lab in the states where they have this huge titanium "bottle", the walls are six feet thick. They suck all the air out of this, then they reduce the temperature to near absolute zero, any remaining atoms condense onto the floor and are literally swept away so there is zero inside it. When they do this virtual spontaneously form then disintegrate repeatedly over and over again, so we know know that you can indeed get "something" from nothing. The old adage that nature abhors a vacuum is truer than we could know.

 

At the moment there are hundreds of labs working on Abiogenesis, the study of how life itself began (you can't have evolution without genetics) they can already make an artificial cell wall, take the basic workings out of an E.coli cell inject them into the artificial cell wall and they work and they reproduce. It's not "artificial" life yet, but it's getting tantalisingly close. Where will Christianity stand if or when making new life becomes a reality, maybe even a commercial product?

 

Last thing; it's getting late, even for a night hawk like me.

The exploration of Mars.

The latest Mars rover is finding tantalising evidence that there once was water, liquid running water on Mars. They can tell this because they are finding certain clays and other minerals on Mars that can only be formed where there is liquid water. There could well be liquid water under the soil on Mars still. The current rover cannot detect life conclusively, it can only look for an environment where life might flourish or have flourished in the past, but the next rover will be able to detect t life if it is there to be detected. If they find microbes on Mars how is this going to affect your religion, I don't mean your own personal beliefs but in the wider sense.How is Christianity going to react to being told that once again the earth is not unique that our planet is not the only place in the solar system that has life?

[chesters1]

There must be life outside of earth otherwise moonies would look very silly!

[corydoras]

There must be life outside of earth otherwise moonies would look very silly!

Don't they already The Mormons too;)

[chesters1]

Whoops wrong sect i meant the mormons ,you need life outside earth to jump onto earth from

The moonies are strange indeed i saw a few minutes (before the rage started and i turned off) a girl who had seemingly normal parents arranging seemingly normal daughters moonie marriage and her being seemingly ok with it,strange

You can understand the parents getting caught up in it back then but the girl has had her life to see whats what in this modern age ,at uni taking sociology so a hint something is amis i suppose

Edited April 8, 2013 by chesters1

[The Flying Tench]

Wow, I'm a bit worried we're hi-jacking the thread, but here goes in brief. My replies will probably look like part of your post cos I don't understand how to do the multi-quote thing

I know we have done this before but when I was at school I tried REALLY hard to do this "born again" thing, All my mates were doing it. Every time there was a meeting (Scriptures Union) there would be one or two more going up and giving testimony and saying the redemption prayer and I felt nothing, zilch, and according to them it was my fault, I just wasn't trying hard enough. Every week the testimonies got more ridiculous, some kids were claiming they saw cherubs, one even said she had a visitation from Gabriel.

Sorry they were such a crazy bunch!

In the end, the last time I went I was looking around me and I just thought to myself that these folks were just a bunch of loonies, I never went back. When I went to secondary school and started to study Physics, Chemistry and specially Biology the less sense religion made. When I found out that Judaism, Christianity and Islam were just three different versions of the same story, then it made less sense. If there is only One True God why does he need three religions? Why does this supreme being not come and sort this mess out. Why does he do nothing for 200,000 years, come down and bugger about with some tribe in bronze age tribe in the Middle East 4,000 years ago, then come back disguised as his son who is really him?

No answers to some of it, but there's a continuity between Judaism and Christianity as you know.

I just don't get any of it. Do you do communion John, do you take part in what is basically symbolic cannibalism? Do you believe in the Virgin Birth? If you do then you believe in a mistranslation from Hebrew. One thing that impresses me about Islam is that you cannot be a Muslim until you can read the Koran in it's original form. I wish Christians were the same. I wish you could only be considered a "real" Christian once you can read it in the original Hebrew and Greek, but I guess that would not help too much with the recruitment of new members, most people are way too lazy to learn to read another language, and ancient Greek is very hard to read.

Of course I do communion. It's true the early christians were accused of cannibalism, but I see the symbolism more as receiving Christ afresh into my heart and life. I don't think you have to read arabic before you can become a muslim, though it's true they see translations as inferior.

Here is my position in a nutshell.

There was no Adam and Eve, there never was a first single pair of Homo sapiens, evolution just does not work that way and evolution is a fact. We understand evolution better than we understand Gravity.

Many christians would agree

No Adam and Eve, no original sin, no need for redemption, no need for a saviour. Outside of the Bible there is no mention of Jesus.

well Adam and Eve are clearly symbolic names, but it's true christians do see a need for redemption. There are a few mentions of Jesus by secular writers (eg Josephus, Tacitus) and of course many by the early church writers.

Modern particle physics tell us that there is no such thing as "nothing" so the old "you can't" get something from nothing argument is now defunct too. They have a lab in the states where they have this huge titanium "bottle", the walls are six feet thick. They suck all the air out of this, then they reduce the temperature to near absolute zero, any remaining atoms condense onto the floor and are literally swept away so there is zero inside it. When they do this virtual spontaneously form then disintegrate repeatedly over and over again, so we know know that you can indeed get "something" from nothing. The old adage that nature abhors a vacuum is truer than we could know.

 

At the moment there are hundreds of labs working on Abiogenesis, the study of how life itself began (you can't have evolution without genetics) they can already make an artificial cell wall, take the basic workings out of an E.coli cell inject them into the artificial cell wall and they work and they reproduce. It's not "artificial" life yet, but it's getting tantalisingly close. Where will Christianity stand if or when making new life becomes a reality, maybe even a commercial product?

I don't see why it's a bigger problem than test-tube babies. Certainly it raises interesting ethical questions, but I don't see why it would challenge basic christian belief.

Last thing; it's getting late, even for a night hawk like me.

The exploration of Mars.

The latest Mars rover is finding tantalising evidence that there once was water, liquid running water on Mars. They can tell this because they are finding certain clays and other minerals on Mars that can only be formed where there is liquid water. There could well be liquid water under the soil on Mars still. The current rover cannot detect life conclusively, it can only look for an environment where life might flourish or have flourished in the past, but the next rover will be able to detect t life if it is there to be detected. If they find microbes on Mars how is this going to affect your religion, I don't mean your own personal beliefs but in the wider sense.How is Christianity going to react to being told that once again the earth is not unique that our planet is not the only place in the solar system that has life?

For years we have known there might be life on other planets. I don't think the discovery of microbes would raise any questions for christianity at all, but if there were advanced life somewhere it would. Will we meet them in heaven!? But I don't see any fundamental problem for christian belief - there are loads of questions we don't know the answer to already!

 

Cory, these answers are inevitably brief and somewhat inadequate. I have a twin brother who has recently retired as a research neuro-scientist. He's written a booklet, mainly for friends, explaining why he's a christian. He's very happy for me to email it to people I get in discussion with. It keeps growing and has got to about 60 pages, but you wouldn't need to read all of it! Actually it is still in draft form (he hopes eventually to self publish) and he has asked me to find one or two people who would give honest feedback on it, so if you felt like reading it he would appreciate your comments. May I email it to you?

[corydoras]

I think derren brown could explain things better

Funny you should say that.

[a cod is a fish]

Hi all, been looking around the site - looks really good. Big hello to you all...

 

Hello Ken, I don't fully understand why you have asked your question, I 'get' the intimation but it a little bit silly to pretend you think anything sinister is going on - surely you don;t think there is any 'evidence' in the film?

 

Don't mean to offend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2T81GcXfmE

[Ken L]

Hi and welcome.

 

I wasn't suggesting that there is anything sinister in the film at all. It just struck me as an incredibly ill conceived thing to be doing in light of the predicament that the Catholic church is in following it's endless pedophile scandals.

All the pope had to do was make the sign of a cross and touch him or even kiss the boy's forehead but no, he had to do the big hug and kiss.

 

The film certainly made me squirm - but maybe I was just hypersensitised after having had lunch with half a dozen Italians on four or five evenings over the course of Ratzinger's resignation and this pope's election. Not a one of them had a single good thing to say about the church and they were pretty much of the opinion that everyone involved in the vatican is a pedophile - that's the sort of image damage that not even the church of Rome can afford to ignore.

 

Having said that, I would happily see the whole festering organisation collapses in on itself and die.

[chesters1]

oh you said election .my bad