Shooting Poll

[Wordbender]

The Times March 14, 2006

A policy that backfired

By Ross Clark

 

 

 

THE FAMILIES of the 16 children and one teacher murdered by Thomas Hamilton in Dunblane Primary School ten years ago yesterday lit candles in solemn memory of the victims. Britain’s criminals, on the other hand, marked the occasion as they mark every other occasion: with rounds of gunfire.

It is depressingly apt that the tenth anniversary of Dunblane should have coincided with a fatal gunfight at a Salford pub, which left two men dead and sent children playing in a nearby park running for cover.

 

The handgun ban introduced after Dunblane has silenced gun clubs and forced Britain’s Olympic shooters to practise overseas, but it certainly hasn’t prevented the criminal classes from arming themselves like never before.

 

In 1996, 7,753 crimes involving firearms were reported to police in England and Wales, and 49 homicides were committed with guns. In the last year for which figures are available, 2003-04, the corresponding figures are 24,094 crimes and 68 homicides.

 

Perhaps without a handgun ban, the figures would now be even higher. Then again, maybe banning handguns has driven more criminals to use knives: 237 people were knifed to death in England and Wales in 2003-04, compared with 197 in 1996. Either way, the dismal results of the handgun ban should be required reading for all politicians before they vote to ban anything.

 

It must have seemed tempting, in the wave of public grief that followed Dunblane, to believe that the act of outlawing weapons would reduce the propensity of the citizenry to commit foul crimes. Just look at America, implored the anti-gun lobby: that country has high gun-ownership and a high murder rate.

 

Conveniently, campaigners did not draw attention to Norway and Switzerland, which combine some of the highest rates of gun-owner- ship with the lowest crime rates.

 

I don’t like guns. To me, double-bore pistol-shooting lives up to its name. But, little though I cared for the rights of shooters and much though I sympathised with the victims of Dunblane, the evidence now points me to an obvious conclusion: that an outright ban on handguns was a pathetic gesture that has disrupted peaceful sports but done absolutely nothing to make any of us safer.

 

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One of the most balanced, truthful and well-reasoned atatements you'll ever read on this subject.

[Blue Marlin]

You can say that about cars capable of over 70 MPH ie breaking the law.

 

More people are killed by cars travelling at law-breaking speeds than handguns!

 

Should 70 MPH speed limiters be fitted to all cars? I suspect a lot of people will say 'Yes'.

 

All because idiots think it's cool!

 

GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE.

PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE!

 

yes true but believe it or not one day we will all be in satellite/computer controlled vehicles like auto taxi's travelling all in line independant of human control. we'll all look back scratching our heads saying "god alive! were we really that crazy putting the average human in charge of a potential killing machine that travels 70mph +??? no wonder all those people died on the roads"... it may be a long time from now but think about, if you look close enough you will see we're already moving closer and closer towards it...

 

again cars will be used for sport only. we will all miss being able to drive but hey watch the number of road deaths fall.

 

& as for peter's comments "Two such weird individuals who had deep psychological flaws caused Hungerford and Dumblane"

 

i work in the mental health sector. 1 in 4 people develop a mental heath problem at some point in their lives. that's a lot of people who were once reasonable that become not so and would definatly not pass such tests... aweful i know but lets just hope if/when that happens to you or I, a gun is not within reach.

[five bellies]

yes true but believe it or not one day we will all be in satellite/computer controlled vehicles like auto taxi's travelling all in line independant of human control. we'll all look back scratching our heads saying "god alive! were we really that crazy putting the average human in charge of a potential killing machine that travels 70mph +??? no wonder all those people died on the roads"... it may be a long time from now but think about, if you look close enough you will see we're already moving closer and closer towards it...

 

again cars will be used for sport only. we will all miss being able to drive but hey watch the number of road deaths fall.

 

& as for peter's comments "Two such weird individuals who had deep psychological flaws caused Hungerford and Dumblane"

 

i work in the mental health sector. 1 in 4 people develop a mental heath problem at some point in their lives. that's a lot of people who were once reasonable that become not so and would definatly not pass such tests... aweful i know but lets just hope if/when that happens to you or I, a gun is not within reach.

 

I can't argue with the statistics about Mental health but what I can say is. As an uninformed indervidaul is that only a minute proportion of that 1 in 4 would become Dellusional and an even smaller amount of that dellusional percentage would be in possetion of a fire arm. that I know still leaves a potential threat but then their is allready the checks and ballances that are in place within the licening procedure. As well ;your objections on mental health ground' s are based on intangerbles that if used would bring every thing that we take for granted in westen sociaty to a standstill was that Judge,Policeman ,Soldier,Marine,Sailor, Aircraft pilot, Doctor, Prime ministor Ect ect in sound mind when they made a life changing Dessision( sp ?). We live in a world of risk assessment and constant background monitoring I am not a conspiracy theorist But I would be very supprised that if on some leval there does not already exist a national register of licenced fire arm Holder/users as the leval of checks that you are subjected too would not go unnoticed by somone.Its should be on record with your Gp that your have a firearms licence He or she could be another line of defence in the machinary that could minimise the chances of Atrocities ever taking place.

 

nice talking to you

 

FB

Edited March 15, 2006 by five bellies

[medwaygreen]

Someone stated"why do we/you need lethal weapons for target shooting how naive a spoon can be a lethal weapons in the wrong hands.

[corydoras]

A Fair enough Point

By definition thats what a fire arm is, the awnser is in the qeustion because of the self control needed to master the weapon, not disimillar to archery,or fencing. a bit zen in a way.

Please forgive my ignorance but if the object is to prove how many missiles you can shoot through the same little hole in a piece of card, at say 20 yds away, why not just use something like an air pistol? Archery is different. I know that an arrow from a bow is just as lethal as a bullet but we don't have automatic bows that can fire 10 arrows in a couple of seconds, and I thought that the epees and sabres used in fencing had no sharp edges. I have an old fencing sabre at home and it would not cut butter.

 

Again please don't get me wrong on this. I have no objection to ownership of shotguns, hunting rifles, but am not keen on jo public having access to automatics or handguns.

Edited March 15, 2006 by corydoras

[RobStubbs]

Again please don't get me wrong on this. I have no objection to ownership of shotguns, hunting rifles, but am not keen on jo public having access to automatics or handguns.

 

Just so long as we restrict gun ownership to criminals it's OK then ? They are the only 'jo public' who could have such guns as they are both illegal.

 

And Peter the illegal firearms are not 'once' legal ones that have been turned over to criminals. As I pointed out previously the police have details of every once legal or legal firearm including it's serial number. There was questions around the police losing some of the guns that were handed in but I have no idea if that has any factual content.

 

The only thing the national gun registry will do is combine all the current data, held by individual forces, into a single database - if it ever gets off the ground.

 

Rob.

[Pelyma]

Having shot hand guns from .22 up to .50 just before the ban came in I have to say they are the hardest weapon to master. I shoot shotguns and rifles, they are far more dangerous. A gun is a tool like any other, its problem is that certain sectors of society worship them. They have to own them at any cost and no legislation is going to stop them.

 

IMO the right attitude would be to take youngsters from these communities and teach them about guns to take the mystique away. In the same way that kids who are never allowed a taste of alcohol go mad when they hit 18, whereas those that follow more the French view find that alcohol is no big deal.

 

My lad is 6 years old and I feel strongly that he has to be educated about guns as they are a fact of life in my house. I would not want him to have a toy gun, but I am perfectly happy that each week he goes to an air rifle club where saftey and responsibility have been drilled into him. He would no more play about with any gun than he would take my car keys and go for a drive. The forbidden fruit has been removed. He also knows that guns are pointed only at things you are going to shoot, even if they are unloaded. He knows to check that barrels are broken and saftey catches are checked, even if an adult has passed the weapon.

 

Contrast that with the attitude of an inner city kid who gets in with the wrong sort. The gun is an idol, it is power, it is the ultimate tough mate, it will get you what you want be that possesions or respect. This is the viscious circle that needs to be broken.

 

BTW vets can still have handguns and hunt servants.

[DavyR]

I can't argue with the statistics about Mental health

 

I can!

 

"1 in 4" is oft-quoted, but a bit misleading. For a start, it includes children, so it's actually 1 in 6 adults. Most of those problems are mild (low levels of anxiety or comparatively short-lived depression).

 

About 1 in 250 have a serious psychotic condition that *might* result in harm to others, but generally doesn't.

 

http://www.dh.gov.uk/assetRoot/04/01/45/01/04014501.pdf

 

Still bad enough for the sufferers, though, and dreadful when tragedies do occur.

[RobStubbs]

Having shot hand guns from .22 up to .50 just before the ban came in I have to say they are the hardest weapon to master. I shoot shotguns and rifles, they are far more dangerous. A gun is a tool like any other, its problem is that certain sectors of society worship them. They have to own them at any cost and no legislation is going to stop them.

 

IMO the right attitude would be to take youngsters from these communities and teach them about guns to take the mystique away. In the same way that kids who are never allowed a taste of alcohol go mad when they hit 18, whereas those that follow more the French view find that alcohol is no big deal.

 

My lad is 6 years old and I feel strongly that he has to be educated about guns as they are a fact of life in my house. I would not want him to have a toy gun, but I am perfectly happy that each week he goes to an air rifle club where saftey and responsibility have been drilled into him. He would no more play about with any gun than he would take my car keys and go for a drive. The forbidden fruit has been removed. He also knows that guns are pointed only at things you are going to shoot, even if they are unloaded. He knows to check that barrels are broken and saftey catches are checked, even if an adult has passed the weapon.

 

Contrast that with the attitude of an inner city kid who gets in with the wrong sort. The gun is an idol, it is power, it is the ultimate tough mate, it will get you what you want be that possesions or respect. This is the viscious circle that needs to be broken.

 

BTW vets can still have handguns and hunt servants.

 

Very well put. It is exactly why we have gun clubs and I myself coach youngsters from the age of about 6 upwards. The very first thing they ever learn about is safety and they are 'taught' it every time they come to our club.

 

Rob.

[peterpikefisher]

To be honest this thread is probably pointless. The Govt. are never going to reverse the ban on handguns as it would send the wrong message. We need less guns in circulation not more. Many of the illegal guns that got into circulation came from the legally held world when handguns were legal. and just because criminals can get guns is no reason to allow an increase in gun ownership by allowing the legal ownership of handguns. this is the reasoning for the ban and i am sure it will remain.

 

 

got to say that 97 % of illegal guns in the UK come from overseas not UK this is fact that's 23% machine pistols 12% hand guns 45% shotguns both db and semi auto 20% rifles semi auto and BA. figures for this from Google search ..