Eating Perch...or any other prized species.

[argyll]

I think I am correct in stating the European country's that eat a lot of coarse fish do so because they are farmed for the table, I think it is an untruth to assume they are harvested from natural venues on a large scale, this is similar to trout fishing in Britain, sure there are natural trout to be caught and killed ,but the vast majority that are knocked on the head are from artificial commercial venues, designed and stocked specifically for catch and kill.... and there is the difference for me, I make no political, moral or any other kind of judgment on those anglers that do practice catch and occasionally kill their quarry...I am against catch and kill on natural venues purely on logic, and my logic tells me , for anglers to plunder natural fish resources is folly and will have a very negative effect on future stocks... stocks that are already under enormous pressure from other issues, I have already stated elsewhere my views are selfish, but they are the views of an angler that wishes to go to a natural venue and bag up!

 

I think I am correct in stating the European country's that eat a lot of coarse fish do so because they are farmed for the table.

 

Not really. Whilst carp are intensively farmed in Eastern Europe, most Western European freshwater fish come right out of the river (or lake). There are still licenced professional fisherman on the Rivers Loire, Vienne and Creuse supplying local restaurants (and supermarkets) with at least pike and zander (perhaps perch too) I suspect that this tradition goes on in other french departments. The Italian and Swiss lakes have professional line and net anglers supplying pretty much the same kind of fish. Anglers in these areas will take fish for the pot on a regular basis.

 

I suspect that there are three historic reasons why freshwater fish may be so popular in central europe. First there is the distance from the sea... it can be hundreds of miles to the nearest port and our euro cousins do like their fish extra fresh. Secondly there is a cultural preference for local produce and if the local produce happens to be zander rather than sea bass, then zander is what they mostly eat. Saltwater species are also available but probably not as fresh. French shops and supermarkets also go to great lengths to import as little as possible and that includes produce from other parts of the same country. Thirdly, they have more of a 'waste not want not' approach to food, particulary in rural areas. For example, all of the pig gets eaten, including the bits that you and I would hesitate to give to the dog. Not all species of freshwater fish are eaten and there are limits on all species on the non game fish rivers, although on the Category 1 salmon and trout rivers you are required to remove any other species. On other parts of other rivers/lakes you can remove nothing. Some stretches of some public rivers are 'no fishing' All part of complex departmental fisheries management, which in the main works well to conserve the fish and fishing (river catfish aside)

 

But historic or not, there is no doubt that some freshwater species are enjoyed for their special flavour and there are endless country cooking and gourmet recipes for a whole range of fish, including one very similar to deep fried whitebait, but using freshwater fish fry.

Edited April 12, 2006 by argyll

[Steve Walker]

But this is the crux of it really isn't it? take by all means, but who or what is replacing the missing fish?

 

In a natural self-sustaining population with a sustainable number of fish taken the fish are replaced through natural reproduction, same as if they were eaten by a pike or an otter or through disease. In an artificially over-stocked situation they would have to be replaced with more farmed fish; it would be a put-and-take fishery on a similar model to commercial trout fisheries. I can't imagine that there are enough people interested to make it commercially viable. I certainly wouldn't want to eat a fish from any commercial coarse fishery I've seen.

[Bob Bradford]

Actually Nick from the North.. there are natural venues not far from me that are bagging venues, of course it is all relative, but I can fish my local river Yare and catch a roach EVERY put -in on the pole in the summer, and in 60 peg matches where everyone is pegged out every fifteen yards 20lb bags of roach are commonplace, the thing is it is sparsely populated and remote!

[Bob Bradford]

In a natural self-sustaining population with a sustainable number of fish taken the fish are replaced through natural reproduction, same as if they were eaten by a pike or an otter or through disease. In an artificially over-stocked situation they would have to be replaced with more farmed fish; it would be a put-and-take fishery on a similar model to commercial trout fisheries. I can't imagine that there are enough people interested to make it commercially viable. I certainly wouldn't want to eat a fish from any commercial coarse fishery I've seen.

 

It not quite as clear cut as that Steve... on commercial venues natural predation is not allowed to exist, so that removes the pressures on fish stock that suffer from this in the wild, we are talking about two completely different set-ups, one is managed and farmed by the owners and the other is left for nature to sort out, do you not agree?

[dogfish]

On my local river Derwent (which is mostly trout club controlled in my area) it is possible to 'bag up' on Grayling on any day in winter.

 

It is also traditional for many anglers who fish these stretches to kill virtually all the Grayling they catch (like it or not..it happens). The river is still full of Grayling.

In fact I am surprised nobody has mentioned Grayling....they are a 'coarse' fish, are good to eat, are self sustaining and will probably die if deep hooked on bait anyway...as anyone who has caught them will testify.

 

They will die whether or not you intend to eat them....they simply do not do well after being hooked as they invariably swallow the lot. They also do very badly in Keepnets although that does not stop anglers.

 

If we followed all the arguments on this thread then maybe we should not fish for Grayling at all.

[Bob Bradford]

I think I am correct in stating the European country's that eat a lot of coarse fish do so because they are farmed for the table.

 

Not really. Whilst carp are intensively farmed in Eastern Europe, most Western European freshwater fish come right out of the river (or lake). There are still licenced professional fisherman on the Rivers Loire, Vienne and Creuse supplying local restaurants (and supermarkets) with at least pike and zander (perhaps perch too) I suspect that this tradition goes on in other french departments. The Italian and Swiss lakes have professional line and net anglers supplying pretty much the same kind of fish. Anglers in these areas will take fish for the pot on a regular basis.

 

I suspect that there are three historic reasons why freshwater fish may be so popular in central europe. First there is the distance from the sea... it can be hundreds of miles to the nearest port and our euro cousins do like their fish extra fresh. Secondly there is a cultural preference for local produce and if the local produce happens to be zander rather than sea bass, then zander is what they mostly eat. Saltwater species are also available but probably not as fresh. French shops and supermarkets also go to great lengths to import as little as possible and that includes produce from other parts of the same country. Thirdly, they have more of a 'waste not want not' approach to food, particularly in rural areas. For example, all of the pig gets eaten, including the bits that you and I would hesitate to give to the dog. Not all species of freshwater fish are eaten and there are limits on all species on the non game fish rivers, although on the Category 1 salmon and trout rivers you are required to remove any other species. On other parts of other rivers/lakes you can remove nothing. Some stretches of some public rivers are 'no fishing' All part of complex departmental fisheries management, which in the main works well to conserve the fish and fishing (river catfish aside)

 

But historic or not, there is no doubt that some freshwater species are enjoyed for their special flavour and there are endless country cooking and gourmet recipes for a whole range of fish, including one very similar to deep fried whitebait, but using freshwater fish fry.

 

The difference then Argyll between "us" and our European cousins is fish management of our natural venues, if it were traditional for the Brits to predominately eat freshwater fish ,then it is fair to assume the EA would be stocking our natural venues similar to our "cousins" but that is not the case ,as I am sure you are aware, we (anglers) simply cannot expect to take and not replace, simple logic ,to me at least!

[Guest NickInTheNorth]

But this is the crux of it really isn't it? take by all means, but who or what is replacing the missing fish?

 

This is what I mean by "acts of vandalism by fellow anglers" food for thought?

 

Nature! It's been doing it for millenia!

[argyll]

The difference then Argyll between "us" and our European cousins is fish management of our natural venues, if it were traditional for the Brits to predominately eat freshwater fish ,then it is fair to assume the EA would be stocking our natural venues similar to our "cousins" but that is not the case ,as I am sure you are aware, we (anglers) simply cannot expect to take and not replace, simple logic ,to me at least!

 

Hang on Bob, I said nothing about restocking of fish. Other than a fairly recent introduction of black bass into a number of european waters, the redistibution of unwanted species and numbers of coarse fish after lakes are drained every few years and the stocking of catch and release specimen carp lakes, I dont recall reading about any general restocking programmes. Its back to the point made by someone earlier. 'Just because you cut the grass, you don't lose your lawn' Removing what may be a relatively small number from a larger population, if managed, may in itself regenerate growth.

Edited April 12, 2006 by argyll

[Steve Walker]

It not quite as clear cut as that Steve... on commercial venues natural predation is not allowed to exist, so that removes the pressures on fish stock that suffer from this in the wild, we are talking about two completely different set-ups, one is managed and farmed by the owners and the other is left for nature to sort out, do you not agree?

 

Certainly, two different scenarios. A commercial would need to be deliberately managed to be put-and-take. A natural venue at equilibrium will sort itself out. That's the defining characteristic of a stable equilibrium, after being nudged a little it returns to where it was. The commercial is being maintained at an artificially high population; reduce the number of fish being stocked or increase the number dieing and the population will decrease. See (very) simplified diagrams.

 

[Bob Bradford]

Hang on Bob, I said nothing about restocking of fish. Other than a fairly recent introduction of black bass into a number of European waters, the redistribution of unwanted species and numbers of coarse fish after lakes are drained every few years and the stocking of catch and release specimen carp lakes, I dont recall reading about any general restocking programmes. Its back to the point made by someone earlier. 'Just because you cut the grass, you don't lose your lawn' Removing what may be a relatively small number from a larger population, if managed, may in itself regenerate growth.

 

"If Managed" is the crucial phrase Argyll, if anglers predate a water willy nilly who knows what damage is being done? I may fish the same venue as you and take (legally) two specimen fish every visit as is my right, you may not take any at all, Joe Bloggs may take more than the legal amount ...and so on, NON of us are replacing lost stock, Steve talks about equilibrium, but how can that be achieved if the venue is not managed properly? Reading your post on our European freshwater fish eating cousins THEY do manage their fishery's to sustain human predation, I am arguing we (Brits) do not, if the proposed legislation banning the removal of ALL coarse fish is rejected, and human predation goes unchecked and escalates ( European cousins, predator anglers,traditional "take one for the pot" anglers etc) how bad does it have to get before change is required and good management is put into place?

 

To sum up, I say take and replace or do not take at all if we want good natural venues everyone can fish and enjoy.