Damn this government!

[Steve Walker]

I don't have a problem with economic migrants but we've had this debate before and I think there comes a point (and most countries operate similar systems from what I can gather) where you simply say we will accept 'n' people per year and thats it -except- under special circumstances.

 

We can't, no more than California can apply quotas to economic migrants from Alabama. That, as far as the Tories are concerned, is what the EU is for and why they took us into it. A free market in the trade of goods and services, and the free movement of labour. After all, it's good for business if competition from legitimate Polish migrants depresses wages for unskilled workers in the UK.

 

[smudgertoo]

I didn't say that. I just don't think we should get the flaming torches and pitchforks out, or try to pin the blame for every social ill we have on them. Otherwise it starts to look like an obsessive hatred in search of a justification. Just like the persecution of the jews in the middle ages for allegedly poisoning wells and spreading the plague, or in Nazi Germany in the last century. I usually keep out of these immigration threads because it's like, well,

 

It's nice and simple to imagine that if only we could "send all these foreigners back where they came from" (which is the obvious subtext here) then there would be enough money in the NHS to treat every illness with whatever monstrously expensive drug people demand. It doesn't work that way. NICE have to take decisions along the lines of "drug to give 5% increase in survival rate of childhood cancer" vs "Drug to help terminally ill middle aged bowel cancer patients live four months longer". There will always be rationing in the NHS, even when the BNP has run out of people to hate and taken to sending ginger people back to Scotland. There will never be enough money because the demand for healthcare is essentially elastic with respect to the budget available to pay for it. There will always be a better, more expensive option which just might work, if only there was money in the pot.

 

So sure, blame the immigrants. Blair will love that, it will help him push the ID card bill through and take the heat out of how many cancer treatments the costs of the Iraq campaign would have paid for. It won't make any chuffing difference to anything, but the Daily Mail will sell some more hatred on the back of it and you can all feel better for having someone to blame.

 

 

sending all the gingers back to scotland sounds good

[GlennB]

I didn't say that. I just don't think we should get the flaming torches and pitchforks out, or try to pin the blame for every social ill we have on them. Otherwise it starts to look like an obsessive hatred in search of a justification. Just like the persecution of the jews in the middle ages for allegedly poisoning wells and spreading the plague, or in Nazi Germany in the last century. I usually keep out of these immigration threads because it's like, well,

 

Indeed it is. I wish I had your self-restraint

 

It's nice and simple to imagine that if only we could "send all these foreigners back where they came from" (which is the obvious subtext here) then there would be enough money in the NHS to treat every illness with whatever monstrously expensive drug people demand. It doesn't work that way.

 

It doesn't work that way on many levels. Although I hate it when my sick Dad can't understand the accent of his doctors and nurses, it's nevertheless blindingly obvious that without migrant workers the NHS would be in deep trouble for lack of staff. I'd guess that's true in other areas of our lives, e.g. the London buses(?)

 

NICE have to take decisions along the lines of "drug to give 5% increase in survival rate of childhood cancer" vs "Drug to help terminally ill middle aged bowel cancer patients live four months longer". There will always be rationing in the NHS, even when the BNP has run out of people to hate and taken to sending ginger people back to Scotland. There will never be enough money because the demand for healthcare is essentially elastic with respect to the budget available to pay for it. There will always be a better, more expensive option which just might work, if only there was money in the pot.

 

Undeniable

 

So sure, blame the immigrants. Blair will love that, it will help him push the ID card bill through and take the heat out of how many cancer treatments the costs of the Iraq campaign would have paid for. It won't make any chuffing difference to anything, but the Daily Mail will sell some more hatred on the back of it and you can all feel better for having someone to blame.

 

Please don't mention Blair in civilised company

 

There was a similar wave of anti-"Mexican immigrant worker" hysteria in the USA not so long ago. The Mex's called a day of celebration/protest and a fair proportion joined. It was only a day, and only a %age of Mex's, but a fair bit of inconvenience was experienced.

[zziplexboy]

I was taken into A&E in a hospital in Spain with a back problem a couple of years ago. Taken in by ambulance. Pain relief given in ambulance. Seen immediately, X ray taken, seen by specialist, painkillers given and prescription and advice given before discharge. When I asked about payment was told not to bother about it, we are all in the EU. No paper work, no forms and no request for documentation. (BTW the hospital was cleaner, better equipped and better staffed than any I have worked in in the UK)

 

Sounds better than what I experienced in France. Evacuated off the freight ferry with a Kidney stone one night at 3am and taken to Calais Hospital. (If this sounds minor to you then you aint never had one!!)Left to scream my pain out for three hours on a trolley eventually given some pain killers and chucked out at 9 am with no money, passport, phone or shoes. ( all in the cab) walked 10 kms to the dock and got a bill for 500 euros the next month which I will do time for rather than pay. It worked out at about 100 euros a tablet. Poor service and rudeness I could have got by visiting any French restaurant for the price of a meal. They are French though so have an excuse. detect bitterness? Moi??

[corydoras]

They are not illegal immigrants. The 600,000 you're talking about are all fellow citizens of the European Union and are fully entitled to live and work anywhere in the EU. It's exactly the same as you or I choosing to take a job in France or Germany.

Erm sorry Steve, that is not quite a true statement!! Think you will find you have to PAY for treatment in France ceratainly!! And THEN try and claim it back! (Speaking from experience here!) No such thing as FREE treatment in France certainly and treatment is already "Pre-piad surely!?)

 

BUT know what you are saying!

Thats not how the system works Chris. You get a european health insurance card from the nhs web site.

It's free.

Mine arrived in 5 days.

It entitles you to the same basic healthcare as a citizen of the country you are in.

Yes you pay to see a doctor in France. So does every French person.

The last time I called a GP out (about a year ago) whilst in in France because I thought my oldest had appendicitis it cost me €70 (and she is a French citizen, under 16), but I did get it all back in the end. It takes about 6 weeks. Its important to save all the little blue or pink stickers off any bottles/boxes your precription comes in as you'll need them to complete the form to claim back any prescription charges.

 

Most European countries are like that. Its not 'pre paid' its an insurance based system.

I quite like the French system. If Dr A can't see me today, I can simply go to Dr B down the street. Most time I find you can get an appointment the same day. Some surgeries have days when you do not even need an appointment and most surgeries are open until 20:00 at least one night per week.

 

BTW the Polish health sytem is probably the best in the EU. just as good as France, but free like ours. The Polish education sytem is streets ahead of France, Germany or our own.

[Newt]

US figures - about $1Billion to get a drug through testing and to market and the patent period is around 10 years to a max of 14 years. This ignores research money for drugs that don't make it.

 

I think if you crunch the numbers to recoup that investment, you can see why they charge so much during the time before cheap generics will be available. Doubtless the drug companies have some seriously expert bean counters who can work the numbers and set a price point that allows the profit they want/need.

 

I freely admit to having no idea if there are any drug companies located in the UK or what your patent regulations are for drugs so the situation may be quite a bit different.

 

For Jan and I, our insurance plan has a co-pay for meds. For a month supply, we pay $5 for the generics to a max of $40 for the new stuff. I am tight so we make really sure there are significant benefits to the 'latest & greatest' before we let a physician prescribe it since I hate paying 8 times more for brand A if brand B is nearly as good.

[RobStubbs]

US figures - about $1Billion to get a drug through testing and to market and the patent period is around 10 years to a max of 14 years. This ignores research money for drugs that don't make it.

 

I think if you crunch the numbers to recoup that investment, you can see why they charge so much during the time before cheap generics will be available. Doubtless the drug companies have some seriously expert bean counters who can work the numbers and set a price point that allows the profit they want/need.

 

I freely admit to having no idea if there are any drug companies located in the UK or what your patent regulations are for drugs so the situation may be quite a bit different.

 

For Jan and I, our insurance plan has a co-pay for meds. For a month supply, we pay $5 for the generics to a max of $40 for the new stuff. I am tight so we make really sure there are significant benefits to the 'latest & greatest' before we let a physician prescribe it since I hate paying 8 times more for brand A if brand B is nearly as good.

 

The patent protection starts from the date the patent is registered not when the drug makes it to market. The development phase takes something like 7 years or so. And hence patent protection may only last 5 years or so - it's very similar in Europe to what it is in the USA.

 

There are obviously some very serious bean counters working out prices but drug companies are not free to choose their own prices. I believe they come up with a price but they then have to negotiate it with the regulatory authorities in each of the countries it will be sold.

 

Newt there are lots of drug companies in the UK. Most of the big ones used to be UK based but following the mergers there are fewer. Where I work (GSK) is UK based although a lot of people seem to think it's a US company.

 

Rob.

[Newt]

LOL - the drug companies are surely merging at a rapid rate & I don't even try to keep up. Last I remembered, Smith, Klein & French was a company as was Burrows Wellcome and I guess both those companies had morphed at least a time or two before they became GSK.

 

Off topic but since GSK have a presence in the Research Triangle Park in North Carolina, if you are ever going to be there let me know and we can arrange to do some fishing.

[RobStubbs]

Off topic but since GSK have a presence in the Research Triangle Park in North Carolina, if you are ever going to be there let me know and we can arrange to do some fishing.

 

Been there before but unlikely to go there any time soon - but I will be sure to let you know - & thanks for the offer.

 

Rob.