must check this re elite 4.5

[jerseytrev]

Not meant towards you mate but towards john the hook

oops

[paintfly]

I think you may find that this thread is concerning cosmetic floors. the tread concerning structural floors is also available of the main page. ( a much better end of story)

 

 

hi mate he cannot spell either ,perhaps he is a dealer ???????

 

 

 

LOL Don't get me started on the standard of spelling on this forum, but certainly a stunning use of a homophone...took me ages to work that one out

[jerseytrev]

hi mate he cannot spell either ,perhaps he is a dealer ???????

LOL Don't get me started on the standard of spelling on this forum, but certainly a stunning use of a homophone...took me ages to work that one out

lol

[lazy hooker]

In what LOL

My Mails gone has yours ?

 

 

nah i was going to send it tomorrow.

i just mentioned that i think it would be better if we find out the reason they are seconds first before jumping to assumptions, if you've mailed them then i'll leave it in your hands.

 

john

[snakey1]

I feel at this point i have to make a several comments in defence of CFF although truth be told he can defend himself quite adequately without my help.

Firstly, as a close friend i can tell you he neither works for johnson outdoors nor any of their distributors or infact in the marine industry, i could tell you the trade he is involved in but really that is none of your business suffice to say its nothing to do with kayaks(and if you don't believe me on this point i couldn't give a f**k).

Secondly, his defence of OK is based on the treatment that we recieved when dealing with them (we both purchased elite 4.5 kayaks at the same time and both had problems that were resolved efficently and successfully by andrew at johnson outdoors)you've assumed that his defence of this company means he works for them or one of their subsidiary companies, in the same way i could assume from your venomous attacks on OK that you work for a rival kayak manufacturer intent on muddying the water for them.

Thirdly, are any of the people on this site who are making comments about the structural integrity of the elites hulls either marine engineers or involved in the plastic rotamoulding industry? if not how can you judge what is structurally sound or not? as i've said on a previous thread comparing the thickness to that of a cola bottle is actually a pretty poor example as cola bottles in general can withstand pressures of in excess of 80 psi and in some cases i've seen them survive up to pressures of over 150psi which is far higher than the working pressures of car tires and yet looking at them or pokeing them with an untrained finger you wouldn't think so(I have worked and do work in the testing/calibration/quality control industry for the engineering and the construction industries for over 17 years now).

fourthly, you say that you only want to pass on the facts to people so they know the full details and are capable of making their own decision. fine then let them do so, you've pointed out the fact that there have been a couple of examples with what appears to be thinner than usual points on the hull, great but why then why go on about the fact that OK NZ are allowing some of their dealers to sell grade a seconds without knowing the reasons why they are actually seconds. I know many large companies that several factory seconds including several boat manufacturers, these seconds usually have cosmetic faults or are infact ex demo models. to think that any legitmate manufacturer would knowingly sell dangerous equipment is paranoid to say the least. At least contact these distributors and find out why Ok are allowing them to be sold rather than just assuming they are dangerous rejects.

Finally as for taking the p*ss out of someones spelling i'm sure i could sit here a run through lots of peoples posts(including my own) for grammatical errors and find hundreds but to be honest its a bit sad and childish really.

My final parting comment is if you think you have a problem with your new kayak that you've just purchased be it an ocean kayak, a malibu, a perception or whatever contact your dealer and ask for a replacement or a refund you do afterall have the law upon your side. If you have problems after that i suggest contacting the manufacturer or trading standards.

I'm sorry if this appears to be a bit of a diatribe but i feel some unjust comments have been made and as such i couldn't stand by without replying.

[Somerset in Jersey]

I feel at this point i have to make a several comments in defence of CFF although truth be told he can defend himself quite adequately without my help.

Firstly, as a close friend i can tell you he neither works for johnson outdoors nor any of their distributors or infact in the marine industry, i could tell you the trade he is involved in but really that is none of your business suffice to say its nothing to do with kayaks(and if you don't believe me on this point i couldn't give a f**k).

Secondly, his defence of OK is based on the treatment that we recieved when dealing with them (we both purchased elite 4.5 kayaks at the same time and both had problems that were resolved efficently and successfully by andrew at johnson outdoors)you've assumed that his defence of this company means he works for them or one of their subsidiary companies, in the same way i could assume from your venomous attacks on OK that you work for a rival kayak manufacturer intent on muddying the water for them.

Thirdly, are any of the people on this site who are making comments about the structural integrity of the elites hulls either marine engineers or involved in the plastic rotamoulding industry? if not how can you judge what is structurally sound or not? as i've said on a previous thread comparing the thickness to that of a cola bottle is actually a pretty poor example as cola bottles in general can withstand pressures of in excess of 80 psi and in some cases i've seen them survive up to pressures of over 150psi which is far higher than the working pressures of car tires and yet looking at them or pokeing them with an untrained finger you wouldn't think so(I have worked and do work in the testing/calibration/quality control industry for the engineering and the construction industries for over 17 years now).

fourthly, you say that you only want to pass on the facts to people so they know the full details and are capable of making their own decision. fine then let them do so, you've pointed out the fact that there have been a couple of examples with what appears to be thinner than usual points on the hull, great but why then why go on about the fact that OK NZ are allowing some of their dealers to sell grade a seconds without knowing the reasons why they are actually seconds. I know many large companies that several factory seconds including several boat manufacturers, these seconds usually have cosmetic faults or are infact ex demo models. to think that any legitmate manufacturer would knowingly sell dangerous equipment is paranoid to say the least. At least contact these distributors and find out why Ok are allowing them to be sold rather than just assuming they are dangerous rejects.

Finally as for taking the p*ss out of someones spelling i'm sure i could sit here a run through lots of peoples posts(including my own) for grammatical errors and find hundreds but to be honest its a bit sad and childish really.

My final parting comment is if you think you have a problem with your new kayak that you've just purchased be it an ocean kayak, a malibu, a perception or whatever contact your dealer and ask for a replacement or a refund you do afterall have the law upon your side. If you have problems after that i suggest contacting the manufacturer or trading standards.

I'm sorry if this appears to be a bit of a diatribe but i feel some unjust comments have been made and as such i couldn't stand by without replying.

 

Right put the teddy back in the pram and look at the threads. If you have seen most post they all contain some banter of sorts all the time so nothing unusual about that, unless its your first time ever of having a bit of the preverbial taken.

 

Secondly, i am not the snake, (no pun intended at you) and have not been getting at them "OK" i have been after the correct understanding with facts. Fact 1. they have openly sold factory seconds and saying slight cosmetic is a wording in sales that can and is used to enable the seller to sometimes (not saying now) sell without ever being able to be got at as its a blanket cover.

Fact 2. It must be stated what faults they are on each specific Kayak, but this has not happened.

 

If this issue is known about at Johnson as you have said, they are not playing ball (as it would cost a small fortune) to carry out the correct course of action, by notifying every dealer to get every one checked. Or can you not see that point clearly. In Plain ENGLISH Johnson are knowingly not informing other dealers about the problem at this point, as no directive has been seen by the customer, and in Law if this can be definatly proved they would be in trouble especially if their was an accident.

 

Final point not getting at anyone only trying to help, if the comments made in any of the forums either about equipment or technique or plain advice or getting at a manufacturer saved just 1 life in 10 million it would be worth it.

[Prowler]

i am not on a high horse as you put it . in fact no one mentioned decals ,the problem appears to be hull thickness which as a safety issue should never have left the factory let alone be sold . end of story

 

Dont get on your high horse over here mate, they dope em

 

hi mate he cannot spell either ,perhaps he is a dealer ???????

LOL Don't get me started on the standard of spelling on this forum, but certainly a stunning use of a homophone...took me ages to work that one out

I blame it on my dislexic keybroad

[jerseytrev]

Dont get on your high horse over here mate, they dope em

 

I blame it on my dislexic keybroad

 

wow !!! someone did throw their teddy out then .

Edited September 21, 2006 by jerseytrev

[snakey1]

Right put the teddy back in the pram and look at the threads. If you have seen most post they all contain some banter of sorts all the time so nothing unusual about that, unless its your first time ever of having a bit of the preverbial taken.

 

Secondly, i am not the snake, (no pun intended at you) and have not been getting at them "OK" i have been after the correct understanding with facts. Fact 1. they have openly sold factory seconds and saying slight cosmetic is a wording in sales that can and is used to enable the seller to sometimes (not saying now) sell without ever being able to be got at as its a blanket cover.

Fact 2. It must be stated what faults they are on each specific Kayak, but this has not happened.

 

If this issue is known about at Johnson as you have said, they are not playing ball (as it would cost a small fortune) to carry out the correct course of action, by notifying every dealer to get every one checked. Or can you not see that point clearly. In Plain ENGLISH Johnson are knowingly not informing other dealers about the problem at this point, as no directive has been seen by the customer, and in Law if this can be definatly proved they would be in trouble especially if their was an accident.

 

Final point not getting at anyone only trying to help, if the comments made in any of the forums either about equipment or technique or plain advice or getting at a manufacturer saved just 1 life in 10 million it would be worth it.

Ok to answer to your facts as i see it 1) Yes it appears Johnson outdoors have allowed one of their dealers to sell factory seconds, personally i do not see any problem with this if, as is stated, they are seconds only due to cosmetic flaws. the important word being "cosmetic" this would indicate that there are no structural flaws of any kind and as such i very much doubt it would stand up in a court of law as a useful get out clause as it is plainly obvious that any flaw which puts the hulls integrity at risk is not a cosmetic one but a structural one.

2) As you say it should be stated what the faults are with each of the kayaks being sold as seconds and i agree it doesn't on the advert, however it does say to contact the company selling them for details at which point if you did i'm sure they would tell you what the faults are with each individual kayak. infact although i do not know new zealand sales law but it may be a case of they have to, then again maybe they don't but if your going to buy seconds common sense would dictate that you would at least ask why they were seconds and if possible inspect them yourself before purchase.

I personally have never said that Johnson outdoors know of any structural flaws with any of their kayaks only that i presumed they knew that one of their distributors is selling factory seconds which as i've said before happens in many industries.From the responses that both CFF and myself have had from johnson outdoors it appears that they take their customers problems very seriously and dealt with any problems we had in a very satisfactory manner.

Yes i agree that safety is the priority which is why i said if anybody thinks they have any problems with their elite to contact their dealer or johnson outdoors directly as this is the safest thing to do as these are the guys who know exactly what they're talking about in relation to the elites.

As for my teddy he stays firmly leashed to my kayak in case he goes for a swim during one of my washing machine style re-entries

[Prowler]

wow !!! someone did throw their teddy out then .

 

Ok i'm not getting this, it was meant to be a joke re the doping scandle over here, dont take a fence heheha he ho nevermind i'm clearly wasted here (dont take that in the wrong context ).

Edited September 21, 2006 by Prowler