Rsa versus Commercial

[steve good]

Is it steve?

 

UK contribution to the EU

(..)

In June 1984 the UK secured an “abatement” or refund from the EC budget because the UK got less back from EU support funds than other wealthier member states.

(..)

So in December 2005 the UK agreed to discount gradually economic development spending in the new member states from the calculation of the abatement. We also agreed that the maximum cost to the UK of this measure over 2007-2013 would be €10.5bn, or £7bn. This will mean the abatement will increase from about €5bn a year now to about €5.8bn a year averaged over 2007-2013.

 

In 2004, for example, the UK's net contribution to the EU, calculated after the abatement and receipt of EU funds, was £3bn in 2004 – about £50 a head. The agreement reached in December on the budget for 2007-2013 will mean the UK’s net contribution to the EU will rise by about 60% compared to 2000-2006.

 

That will leave us paying, for the first time since we joined the EU, roughly the same as France and Italy.

 

Full details of the UK’s contribution to the EU budget are contained in the European Community Finances White Paper, which was published in 2005, and is available here:

 

European Community Finances: Statement on the 2005 EC Budget and measures to counter fraud and financial mismanagement (PDF, 661 KB)

 

Hi FishingsFine

 

All that means nothing, the EU have not signed the accounts out year on year which can only mean that they do not balance for whatever reason.

 

This goverment have been the largest indirect taxation goverment of all time where has all that money gone, it has not been spent at home

 

steve

[Ian Burrett]

It amounts to millions in Scotland and it isn't just the fishing boats as the processors get a slice as well.

 

One fishing boat got over £28,000 for a set of scales

 

MFV Starlight Rays Peterhea Marine Scales 28,315

 

All the details at http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Fisherie...wards/March2007

[Jaffa]

Not sure about Scotland, you need to talk to the lads there.

 

But in England and Wales, if there's a foreign vessel fishing within six miles (or any suspected illegal fishing activity), then you need to quickly contact the Local Sea Fisheries Committee http://www.asfc.org.uk/

 

And or the Marine Fisheries Agency http://www.mfa.gov.uk/contact/portoffice.htm

 

(But be aware of some anglo/foreign vessels http://www.defra.gov.uk/fish/sea/manage/pd...nomic%20link%22 that are considered part of the UK fleet, though Idon't know if any of these are small enough to fish close inshore (different SFCs have different byelaws about how close larger vessels can come - in my own district you need to be under 17 metres to come close in)

 

(In some estuaries the EA acts as the SFC, and enforces rules regarding sea-trout, salmon and eels out to 6 miles. Oh! and fishing for salmonoids and freshwater species out to 6 too ie you already need a rod licence out to 6 miles for some fish! - call 0800 807 060 - put it in your mobile now, if you spot something suspicious close inshore. They will pass you onto the right people if it's not their problem)

 

The SFC's (I believe that Scotland is to introduce something similar to the English SFCs in the not too distant future), only enforce their own belaws and national and EU fisheries legislation out to 6 miles within their own district.

 

Outside of 6 miles but within 12, foreign vessels that don't have 'grandfather's rights' (see:http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/pri/en/oj/dat/2002/l_358/l_35820021231en00590080.pdf ) are policed by the MFA (as is all fishing out to our 200 mile or the 'median line' between close neighbours, and UK boats wherever they fish)

 

 

Leon, thanks for taking the time to post that, but Im afraid that does not give me much confidence. The number of Fishery Offices in Scotland is shrinking (we used to have one at Arbroath (9 miles away) ,but now the nearest is either Aberdeen or Pittenweem (and i'd imagine the powers that be are looking at scrapping that too). All the "big" cases against UK fishermen seem to have been of the easy retrospective kind; where a load of money is thrown at an easy target and the media instantly informed. Can't see how that will work with foreign registered boats, or with UK registered flag boats where its hard to track down where the paperwork is, let alone raid it.

 

Going back to my original question; you say

 

Except for that 'derogation' whereby each nation now exclusively fishes and enforces within 6 miles (double the pre cfp limit), and shares with nations whose vessels traditionally fished what was once the 'high seas' within 12 miles (often only for certain species at certain times of the year, and in certain places).

 

And yes the derogation is reviewed every 10 years (I think it's 7 years until the next review).

 

 

And yes it is technically conceivable that the derogation could be lifted, as ministers use it as a bargaining tool, and give every national fleet access to every EU countries beaches, but that just isn't going to happen. (but every ten years it does make a good bogeyman story to stir national fears of those 'orrible garlicky foreigners nicking all our fish off our beaches, and we have no way of saying no).

 

Its something I was aware of,also assumed you were aware of, but am far from sure many people are?

 

the derogation is reviewed every 10 years (I think it's 7 years until the next review

 

You take the view that its no big deal, that its just not going to happen; I have come to the belief that the commercial pressure is the only dam in the way of this particular flood, and the only other alternative was a green defence through of no take zones. I'd be interested to hear why you are so sure this just isnt going to happen?

 

There are a couple of live threads on here at the moment that are having a pop (cheap shots imho) at commercials over subsidies. I've read through the figures in IB's link and my reaction was "wow, fantastic" ; the subs are slowing down in a big way, most of them are small amounts directed in good ways.

 

Yet still the commercials are demonised by RSA reps? Most of those were for stuff like a set of scales!

 

The breakdown of subs to Spain, boat by boat, business by business would be something I'd love to see if you have it? My cynical side looks at the fact the Spain does not even know how many boats it has and seems to be able to milk the EU for treatys to send boats all down the African coastline (no marketing problems for Asda or tesco there; can't remember a "save the Gambian fish" campaign).

 

I could be wrong but i thought the last figure on fishery subsidy to Spain, until the next review, was over a billion. Im prob wrong on that as its just too big. .. Anyone got the right figure, and just what its getting spent on?

 

Chris

[Ian Burrett]

Leon, thanks for taking the time to post that, but Im afraid that does not give me much confidence. The number of Fishery Offices in Scotland is shrinking (we used to have one at Arbroath (9 miles away) ,but now the nearest is either Aberdeen or Pittenweem (and i'd imagine the powers that be are looking at scrapping that too). All the "big" cases against UK fishermen seem to have been of the easy retrospective kind; where a load of money is thrown at an easy target and the media instantly informed. Can't see how that will work with foreign registered boats, or with UK registered flag boats where its hard to track down where the paperwork is, let alone raid it.

 

Going back to my original question; you say

Its something I was aware of,also assumed you were aware of, but am far from sure many people are?

 

the derogation is reviewed every 10 years (I think it's 7 years until the next review

 

You take the view that its no big deal, that its just not going to happen; I have come to the belief that the commercial pressure is the only dam in the way of this particular flood, and the only other alternative was a green defence through of no take zones. I'd be interested to hear why you are so sure this just isnt going to happen?

 

There are a couple of live threads on here at the moment that are having a pop (cheap shots imho) at commercials over subsidies. I've read through the figures in IB's link and my reaction was "wow, fantastic" ; the subs are slowing down in a big way, most of them are small amounts directed in good ways.

 

Yet still the commercials are demonised by RSA reps? Most of those were for stuff like a set of scales!

 

The breakdown of subs to Spain, boat by boat, business by business would be something I'd love to see if you have it? My cynical side looks at the fact the Spain does not even know how many boats it has and seems to be able to milk the EU for treatys to send boats all down the African coastline (no marketing problems for Asda or tesco there; can't remember a "save the Gambian fish" campaign).

 

I could be wrong but i thought the last figure on fishery subsidy to Spain, until the next review, was over a billion. Im prob wrong on that as its just too big. .. Anyone got the right figure, and just what its getting spent on?

 

Chris

 

Hi Chris

 

I raised the point about the set of scales.

 

The West coast charter fleet operates mainly on a catch and release basis and therefore have an environmentally low impact. We brings thousands into the local economies, supports jobs in Hotels and restaurants tackle and bait shops etc. etc.

 

Every time we have have a license renewal the goal posts are changed with additional safety equipment to buy and new courses to attend. Yet we can't get a penny out of the exec. whereas the commercial lads get free First aid, firefighting, sea survival courses.

 

Haven't i got a right to be peed off with the system.

Edited March 11, 2007 by Ian Burrett

[Jaffa]

Hi Chris

 

I raised the point about the set of scales.

 

The West coast charter fleet operates mainly on a catch and release basis and therefore have an environmentally low impact. We brings thousands into the local economies, supports jobs in Hotels and restaurants tackle and bait shops etc. etc.

 

Every time we have have a license renewal the goal posts are changed with additional safety equipment to buy and new courses to attend. Yet we can't get a penny out of the exec. whereas the commercial lads get free First aid, firefighting, sea survival courses.

 

Haven't i got a right to be peed off with the system.

 

I think everyone is peed off with it but i don't believe a word of what im hearing from the RSA side atm. IMHO the main reasons my local charter fleet has reduced are to do with non headline stuff like HSE and environmental legislation. OK, go knock the commercials guys if they have found a way around it, but why not instead ask them how?

 

2 Arbroath boats that i know of gave up because they were no longer able to beach and paint at the harbour. The economics for RSA boats around here are really borderline IMHO; from what i've seen they are either a weekend/off season sideline for a commercial or an RSA "playing at it" . Thats nothing to do with fish stocks, and i doubt a single one of the Arbroath charters has given up on that grounds.

 

FWIW I work selling Ornamental fish atm.;The legislation heading for us is enough to put everyone but the tesco style chains out of work

[Leon Roskilly]

You take the view that its no big deal, that its just not going to happen; I have come to the belief that the commercial pressure is the only dam in the way of this particular flood, and the only other alternative was a green defence through of no take zones. I'd be interested to hear why you are so sure this just isnt going to happen?

 

Because the same rules apply to all EU coastal waters, and all nations are equally keen to retain management of their own inshore waters.

 

It is not possible for the UK to lose the derogation, without all other EU nations with coastal waters also losing the same derogation that applies also in their waters.

 

Interesting too that at the last round, EU nation's rights to manage the fisheries within the derogation zone (12 miles) was actually strengthened so that each coastal nation can now apply conservation measures within their own zone, applicable to any vessels allowed to fish within the 12 including foreign boats) over and above those that are generally applied communally within the CFP.

 

(It was a disappointment that this wasn't applied towards the bass pair trawling within the 12, but I'm told by DEFRA that it could be used if (say) a SFC wants to move forward with fin fish conservation measures, to knock the argument on the head that such measures will only apply out to 6 miles where the foreigners operate)

 

see also:

 

http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/pri/en/oj/dat...1en00590080.pdf

 

(Anyone getting bored reading through will find the 'grandfather rules' as to who can fish in each other's 12 toward the end - our boats also have rights to fish in other's waters)

Edited March 11, 2007 by Leon Roskilly

[Leon Roskilly]

Leon, thanks for taking the time to post that, but Im afraid that does not give me much confidence. The number of Fishery Offices in Scotland is shrinking (we used to have one at Arbroath (9 miles away) ,but now the nearest is either Aberdeen or Pittenweem (and i'd imagine the powers that be are looking at scrapping that too).

 

I believe that Scotland is considering introducing a system for inshore management similar to the SFCs in England (which themselves are soon to be transformed - should know more after publication of the Marine Bill white paper on Thursday).

 

They are talking about 12 districts for Scotland.

 

Perhaps some of the lads from Scotland might be able to say more?

[Ian Burrett]

I believe that Scotland is considering introducing a system for inshore management similar to the SFCs in England (which themselves are soon to be transformed - should know more after publication of the Marine Bill white paper on Thursday).

 

They are talking about 12 districts for Scotland.

 

Perhaps some of the lads from Scotland might be able to say more?

 

At the moment no one knows what is happening in Scotland and that includes the exec. The original intention was to have 12 Inshore fishery groups similar to the SFC's up and running by 2006 but it looks like everything has been put on hold till after the May election. Even officials from SEERAD (Defras equivalent) are in the dark and haven't a clue what's going to happen

 

 

Ross Finnie the Scottish fisheries minister wrote to SACN Scotland and made the following statement

 

“However I must stress that the Strategy’s primary concern is commercial, not recreational, sea fishing and an Inshore Fisheries Groups executive committee – tasked with developing management plans for the area’s commercial fisheries – will be made up exclusively of commercial fishing representatives”

 

This caused an outrage in Scotland and led to an concentrated email campaign organised jointly by the SACN, SOS and the SFSA which motivated many anglers to write to ther MP's. As a direct result of the campaign we were finally given an audience with the exec. which resulted in an economic survey; results of which should be out his summer and inclusion in many of the high level fisheries meetings.

 

But still no access to the Inshore fishery groups.

 

The NGO's like WWF RSPB MCS etc are on Finnies back as they also feel all stakeholders should be given access to the inshore fisheries groups, which is why we believe there is a delay in implementing the groups Hopefully when the details emerge RSA will have a seat.

 

The exec refuses to get involved in further dialogue until after the results of the economic survey, so with that an the elections, its a frustrating time at the moment.

 

I wish Scottish RSA could be sat round a table planning a strategy for Scotland Only my opinion but the whingers and moaners south of the border don't realise what an opportunity the Defra RSA strategy is.

 

I have fished all over the world and seen first hand what an organised RSA strategy can do for the fishing. The likes of Florida Keys just gets better by the year.

Edited March 11, 2007 by Ian Burrett

[stavey]

I believe that Scotland is considering introducing a system for inshore management similar to the SFCs in England (which themselves are soon to be transformed - should know more after publication of the Marine Bill white paper on Thursday).

 

 

Hi leon

 

Lets hope this sfc transformation means more rsa reps bums on seats on these committees? helping to re-address the massive imbalances that we currently have heavily in favour of the commercials.

 

Do you think this is likely leon??????

[Leon Roskilly]

Hi leon

 

Lets hope this sfc transformation means more rsa reps bums on seats on these committees? helping to re-address the massive imbalances that we currently have heavily in favour of the commercials.

 

Do you think this is likely leon??????

 

 

I think that the balance of representation will change, particularly with regards to the number of county councillors, many of whom are put forward to the committees because of some association with the commercial fishing industry.

 

There is probably going to be a 'greener' feel to the committees, changing the balance more towards the protection of the marine environment rather than its exploitation, and that could mean more support for conservation measures suggested by angling reps.

 

And the total number of committee members on many of the committees will probably be reduced (possibly to 15), meaning that if 2 rsa representatives are retained, their proportion of representation will be greater.

 

But I'm not counting any eggs just yet and I'll be awaiting the revelation of the details as much as anybody else.