Are fish 'clever'?

[Dick Dastardly]

Im sure the Fly angler fishes with an artificial fly to make it more of a challenge as ordinary baits would make it too easy and wouldn't be as half as much fun, however I wouldn't say they were any harder to catch than course fish, probably even easier especially as a lot of them haven't even seen a hook before..

 

Exactly! I have no problem with it as I love fly fishing but I like things to be kept in perspective.

[Anderoo]

Poor old trout, they're beautiful, hard fighting, and live in the loveliest places, but blimey are they thick

 

I spend a lot of time fly fishing for little brownies (up to a pound or so) in a local stream in the closed season and I love it - creeping about watching for rises, getting into position, casting accurately and without hooking up on all the undergrowth, choosing the right fly, avoiding drag, striking before they spit out the fly, it's brilliant. On a good evening I might catch (and return, of course) 3 or 4 trout maximum, if they're really having it, and miss another 4 or so, covering about a mile of river.

 

In the coarse season, you can catch 4 from virtually any swim you choose by feeding maggots and trotting a float down with pretty much any bait you choose

 

Catching them on the fly is infinitely more rewarding, they're just too easy with coarse gear. Anyone who says differently clearly hasn't got accurate frames of reference.

[Dick Dastardly]

Budgie hiding from a predator isn't just a human trait there are many animals in fact virtually all will try to avoid a predator.

Do animals have human traits or do humans have animal traits. At the end of the day humans are only animals all be it at the top of the food chain.

All animals show different levels of reasoning this has been shown with scientific study.

 

I think you misunderstood me Tigger. Your last comment is what I was really getting at. ie "All animals show different levels of reasoning this has been shown with scientific study." Anthropomorphism simply attributes the same ability (or as you say "level" to creatures at very different ends of the range. The biggest mistake that it causes though is that the minute people start attributing the same levels of reasoning where do they stop? this then leads to them asuming the creatures have other similar things such as emotions etc!

 

Read some of the PETA stuff and you will see what I mean about that! or just as bizzarely (and I hasten to add to PETAS obvious delight as they often quote it!) read some of the slush and gush on the carp sites!

[Guest tigger]

I think you misunderstood me Tigger. Your last comment is what I was really getting at. ie "All animals show different levels of reasoning this has been shown with scientific study." Anthropomorphism simply attributes the same ability (or as you say "level" to creatures at very different ends of the range. The biggest mistake that it causes though is that the minute people start attributing the same levels of reasoning where do they stop? this then leads to them asuming the creatures have other similar things such as emotions etc!

 

Read some of the PETA stuff and you will see what I mean about that! or just as bizzarely (and I hasten to add to PETAS obvious delight as they often quote it!) read some of the slush and gush on the carp sites!

 

 

I know what you mean about the PETA angle Budgie. I agree with animal welfare but not animal rights there is a difference as you will know.

[Rob J]

What a wonderful debate.

It really is a great question... I think most of what fish do, is instinct.

 

HOWEVER, The Bluegill I catch here in California seem to be unique...

 

Bluegills have a spiny dorsal fin like a Perch but more heavy duty... they also have needle like points on their gill covers... When they are small, the spines are not as strong and sharp as they are on a big Bluegill... thus, they are forage for the Largemouth Bass... the Bluegill go to great lengths to avoid the Bass... hiding in weeds and sunken roots and such... and scattering in every direction when a Bass approaches... BUT ... when they become about hand sized (that's a big Bluegill)... they will be suspending and eating with the Bass, co-existing in the same space.

 

A Largemouth Bass will not attack a Bluegill over a certain size because it seems to know that it would get stuck in his throat and kill him. The Bluegill obviously know this as well or they would still be hiding in the weeds. Instinct or knowledge...

What a great question.

 

Rob J

Palm Springs Ca.

[norfolkfisher]

Where as pike seem to not understand this as much, there's been a few cases of pike swallowing pike and other things that they can't take down and simply drown themselves.

 

Fish are clever, just not that clever.

[Steve Burke]

An interesting topic!

 

I suppose it depends on how we define intelligence. Even scientists don't seem to agree on this.

 

However in controlled experiments scientists have discovered that fish appear to learn from the experience of being caught, or even seeing other fish caught. Whether this applies to different species would of course require more experiments, but I suspect it does.

 

Obviously it depends on the circumstances, but some species seem harder to catch than others. Trout are the easiest I've gone after, but many of these hadn't been released very long. Wild brownies in small streams have been harder, but not too difficult as long as you don't spook them. It's learning techniques such as upstream worming that's the hard part.

 

The most difficult for me have been big perch and big bream. It may be with the latter that it's more a matter of location.

 

However big perch seem to wise up to rigs very quickly. They're very different indeed to their smaller brethen, that we all know can be almost suicidal at times. That probably explains why so many specimen hunters have a big perch missing from their PB list. For me this challenge is one of the attractions of specimen stripies.

 

In my experience big perch wise up to rigs even quicker than carp. Luckilly though they don't seem to remember the experiences as long as carp.

 

Mind you, carp are all too often given cult status. I don't believe they're any more difficult than many other species. Indeed, the Korda underwater videos showed that the tench were much less likely than the carp to make a mistake.

 

Which perhaps isn't surprising. After all, to get to their big size carp are almost eating machines in comparison!

[Anderoo]

Well, I was seriously 'outsmarted' by the trout yesterday evening If they're rising to a hatch I usually catch a couple, but when nothing's moving I've never caught one from my little stream. I tried wet flies down and across and upstream nymphs with the usual result. I know they're there, I saw 3 of them, and when trotting maggots you catch one after the other...

[bluerinse]

Are fish really more intelligent than monkeys?

Alok Jha The Guardian, Thursday September 4 2003 Article historyAbout this articleClose This article appeared in the Guardian on Thursday September 04 2003 . It was last updated at 12:21 on January 05 2006.

 

There is certainly more evidence for intelligence in fish than in monkeys. But this has more to do with the volume of research on fish, work that is sometimes hard to do on monkeys.

 

"If you make a big list and have a look at all the evidence for advanced cognition, the evidence is far more convincing for fish than it is for primates," says Culum Brown, a biologist at Edinburgh University and co- author of a report this week on how intelligent fish really are. "That's primarily because most of the primate literature is based on anecdotal evidence and brief observation."

 

Gone are the days when fish were thought to float around without much regard for their environment or other fish. According to Brown, fish are "steeped in social intelligence". They pursue Machiavellian strategies of manipulation, punishment and reconciliation and cooperate to avoid predators or catch food.

 

They can identify their shoal-mates, recognise the social status of other fish, use tools, build complex nests and even navigate mazes. And, to put the most persistent fish heresy to bed, they even have impressive long-term memories. Brown cites his own recent research finding that fish remembered the location of a hole in a fishing net nearly a year after first learning about it.

 

Apocryphal tales of goldfish having memories that last a few seconds seem mainly designed to make people feel better about keeping them in small featureless bowls. To prevent your fish getting bored, Brown suggests changing its environment from time to time. The fish may recognise the rock you have moved, but the fact that it's in a different place is always interesting to it, Brown says.

 

Paul Honess, a primatologist at the Oxford of University, is surprised that biologists would claim primate-like intelligence for fish. "If the only evidence is quantity of research, then that's no evidence at all," he says.

 

Brown says he is not arguing that fish are more intelligent than primates per se, but that they are more intelligent than we thought

[gozzer]

That is like reading one of hembos jokes bluerinse, but without the punchline. (It doesn't really need one though, does it?)

 

John.