Obama Reality - A Pretty good assessment

[Ken Davison South Wales]

they (us) really need those weapons dont you think they will have found at least the smallest bit of real evidence to support their lies by now ?

even they (we) quickly changed from WMD to regime change as an excuse knowing full well regime change is illegal but better than showing the non existence of WMD.

the clips maybe cobbled together but the words remain the same! lies its clear enough to everyone hopefully yourself included ,once these invisible WMD are found or "manufactured" i will retract my statements

 

Strangely I am not in the least surprised that they have found nothing, they are struggling to find the insurgents they currently fighting. I know for a fact he had road head cutters for tunneling and other equipment purchased of contractors on completion of works. A hundred men could easily carve out vast underground caverns if required, but he only needed small ones. Twenty or thirty men, holes dug men shot, end of story, so simple. A 80' tunnel would easily conceal a scud missile.

[chesters1]

Strangely I am not in the least surprised that they have found nothing, they are struggling to find the insurgents they currently fighting. I know for a fact he had road head cutters for tunneling and other equipment purchased of contractors on completion of works. A hundred men could easily carve out vast underground caverns if required, but he only needed small ones. Twenty or thirty men, holes dug men shot, end of story, so simple. A 80' tunnel would easily conceal a scud missile.

 

but you have to get whatevers going to be contained in the tunnel to it plus you have to get rid of the waste ,it wont be sand or you would have to import pit props or mass produce a way of stopping it caving in so that will be spotted moving toward it

even a country the size of iraq can be covered by just a few satellites theres no need to have people on the ground looking ,traces more than the tunnels themselves are far easier to spot.the fact that scuds are extremely heavy would also mean some sort of ramp would be needed to get it out of the tunnel another difference in temperature to consider for the sats to see.

and you can shoot the diggers but still roumers will get round and people are nosey by nature ,then theres the wests spies and those fleeing the country ,the latter gave plenty of "evidence" but strangely all was found lacking in truth .

satellites can see in the dark as well so the cover of night is no use.they also see in the infra red so a difference of temperature between spoil and surface sand will stick out like a sore thumb especially at night.

then we had saddam himself and his cohorts nicely locked up a promise of a free pardon would soon loosen their lips do you think they all kept quiet and preferred death.

no they were quickly handed over for trial to the curd in charge (ensuring they got the required outcome) just to stop them saying "told you so" when bugger alls found in another ten years.

the governments changing from WMD to regime change proves the absence of WMD

and you cant call bio material whatever its container WMD the General Purpose Criterion says only its use is the factor if its WMD ,we didnt loose sleep over its actual use so we can rub out bio from the a gender leaving only nukes which ofcourse are the wests fabrication thus WMD was quickly dropped.

seeing as theres always a trail when nuclear material is transported (as isreal found out to its cost) we fabricated the nigerian trail ,nothing has ever been found anywhere to prove saddam had nuclear material even waste bar medicinal.

it dawned to the governments that this leg was not a reliable reason so regime change became the reason ,if the governments had real proof otherwise then WMD would remain a legitimate reason in itself for invasion.

i am sure were carefully out of sight making a plant and putting in nuclear material for us to "find" trouble is its not as easy as they thought there still occupied in fighting hence all the "construction" workers (and indeed all the majority of imported workers ) are americans there for one reason but probably CIA controlled making evidence for future use incase bush and blair are taken to court for an illegal regime change.

the biggest problem i have with the nuke factor is owning up he had it! it would probably be in his favour making us think twice in invading incase he let a few off and with tight sanctions already nothing much to lose anyway ,it must have occured even to saddam having a nuke capability makes us look elswhere as we have with other nuke owners with just as bad a reputation if not worse than his.if i were iran i would get them as quick as possible or insinuate they have! there probably next!

Edited November 15, 2008 by chesters1

[Emma two]

I think I can awnser that! if you Come wrapped in a skin any shade other than pink you don't count! by and large History seems to support this.

 

Im sure Im going to get Corrected.

 

Not by me you won't, sounds about right.

[Ken Davison South Wales]

but you have to get whatevers going to be contained in the tunnel to it plus you have to get rid of the waste ,it wont be sand or you would have to import pit props or mass produce a way of stopping it caving in so that will be spotted moving toward it

even a country the size of iraq can be covered by just a few satellites theres no need to have people on the ground looking ,traces more than the tunnels themselves are far easier to spot.

and you can shoot the diggers but still roumers will get round and people are nosey by nature ,then theres the wests spies and those fleeing the country ,the latter gave plenty of "evidence" but strangely all was found lacking in truth .

satellites can see in the dark as well so the cover of night is no use.

then we had saddam himself and his cohorts nicely locked up a promise of a free pardon would soon loosen their lips do you think they all kept quiet and preferred death.

no they were quickly handed over for trial to the curd in charge (ensuring they got the required outcome) just to stop them saying "told you so" when bugger alls found in another ten years.

the governments changing from WMD to regime change proves the absence of WMD

and you cant call bio material whatever its container WMD the General Purpose Criterion says only its use is the factor if its WMD ,we didnt loose sleep over its actual use so we can rub out bio from the a gender leaving only nukes which ofcourse are the wests fabrication thus WMD was quickly dropped.

seeing as theres always a trail when nuclear material is transported (as isreal found out to its cost) we fabricated the nigerian trail ,nothing has ever been found anywhere to prove saddam had nuclear material even waste bar medicinal.

it dawned to the governments that this leg was not a reliable reason so regime change became the reason ,if the governments had real proof otherwise then WMD would remain a legitimate reason in itself for invasion.

i am sure were carefully out of sight making a plant and putting in nuclear material for us to "find" trouble is its not as easy as they thought there still occupied in fighting hence all the "construction" workers (and indeed all the majority of imported workers ) are americans there for one reason but probably CIA controlled making evidence for future use incase bush and blair are taken to court for an illegal regime change

 

I am reasonably certain he did not have nuke weapons, but I am sure if he could have got his hands on them he would have.

 

Excavations & Spoil:

 

We dumped up to 2,000,000 tons of spoil per month on one project for over two years and believe me you would never have known.

 

Small amounts of spoil tipped in a flash flood area would vanish very quickly.

 

We tunneled in sand with out a problem using rock bolts and shotcrete, one of my specialties.

 

Select a valley and go in via the walls it is very simple hard to spot from above easy to seal up with a few large rocks, honestly it is not an engineering feat.

 

His biggest problem would have been setting them up in the open ready to fire, it needs a lot of equipment and power which generates heat which is easy to detect as he found out earlier. Add to that they were not very accurate so taking out strategic targets was not very feasible.

 

Armed with a chemical head and fired into a densely populated area they would have been weapons of mass destruction and he was boasting at one stage that he had that capability.

 

Once captured they were under observation so no chance of twisting arms plus they knew they were going to swing what ever they said so why say anything at all. I think they would have served a better purpose alive than dead but that is the way of the Middle East.

 

Another interesting point is if a local did spot one would he turn it in, my knowledge based on living with them would be no. It is difficult to explain why but whatever faction they were they would consider it to be a personal asset for a future date and it would remain top secret. So the chances of us getting to find out would be very remote.

 

Saddam was trying to lay his hands on many things like his gigantic gun but he was foiled almost every step of the way.

 

The man was a big bluffer, he played a dangerous game of poker and lost, unfortunately that has left Iraq in turmoil.

[chesters1]

when the wests hands stacked they always lose

i did a bit of exploratory tunnelling in my garden (nothing big just 14ft deep and twenty feet in) and in sand and it steamed in the cold air so the difference in moisture alone (even in the desert) must be noticeable to a sat surely ? plus ofcourse you have to ship the spoil you cant throw it behind you to a distance away ,by small tubes in your trousers POW style perhaps you wont see it but large scale some tracks will be noticable.

the channel tunnel even the first day had scores of lorries and it would need to be approximately that diameter to get a scud in on its carrier there not small machines by any means ,the little rockets perhaps .

the scud itself is easy but getting it on a launcher underground needs a big tunnel the launchers are not small themselves.

 

this is also interesting showing that bio weapons didnt interest the west

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/arming_iraq.php

 

we cant really pick and choose who he uses them on ,can we? especially when we sell them bio materials,you cant count bio as WMD if you turn a blind eye when its used nor pick conflicts its used in (re the curds)

 

"The man was a big bluffer, he played a dangerous game of poker and lost, unfortunately that has left Iraq in turmoil."

 

trouble is he showed his cards to the world but still got invaded and our intervention leaves iraq in turmoil saddam had it well under control with our blessing for decades ,no naughty "insurgents" terrorists or much else when he was in charge ,we infact brought terrorism to iraq and on to afghanistan ,now america's shelling pakistan dont they have enough blood yet?

Edited November 15, 2008 by chesters1

[Ken Davison South Wales]

when the wests hands stacked they always lose

i did a bit of exploratory tunnelling in my garden (nothing big just 14ft deep and twenty feet in) and in sand and it steamed in the cold air so the difference in moisture alone (even in the desert) must be noticeable to a sat surely ? plus ofcourse you have to ship the spoil you cant throw it behind you to a distance away ,by small tubes in your trousers POW style perhaps you wont see it but large scale some tracks will be noticable.

the channel tunnel even the first day had scores of lorries and it would need to be approximately that diameter to get a scud in on its carrier there not small machines by any means ,the little rockets perhaps .

the scud itself is easy but getting it on a launcher underground needs a big tunnel the launchers are not small themselves.

 

this is also interesting showing that bio weapons didnt interest the west

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/arming_iraq.php

 

we cant really pick and choose who he uses them on ,can we? especially when we sell them bio materials,you cant count bio as WMD if you turn a blind eye when its used nor pick conflicts its used in (re the curds)

 

"The man was a big bluffer, he played a dangerous game of poker and lost, unfortunately that has left Iraq in turmoil."

 

trouble is he showed his cards to the world but still got invaded and our intervention leaves iraq in turmoil saddam had it well under control with our blessing for decades ,no naughty "insurgents" terrorists or much else when he was in charge ,we infact brought terrorism to iraq and on to afghanistan ,now america's shelling pakistan dont they have enough blood yet?

 

Tunnel 6m wide 9m high and seventy five metres long would do the job a total of 4050 cubic metre approx 2 tons per cubic metre say 9000 tons divided by 20 ton loads 450 loads twenty loads a day four weeks including rock support would do it, another couple of weeks tidying things up and disposing of evidence A very small job and remember he had years in which to do this before the first war broke out.

 

All of the kit purchased from a wide range of sources was dual purpose, like the giant barrel parts

 

As you so rightly say he had it well under control, however I do not think you would have survived that long there you would have been far to out spoken for his taste And yes again your quite right no insurgents they were known as bed mates back then. And as for showing his cards what hand do you want to see he played more hands per round than there were cards in a pack

 

And whilst there has been a very regrettable loss of life to date it has not reached any where near the figures that were lost whilst he had it under control

[Emma two]

Congratulations Emma Two, on some well researched debate.

 

Just remember "there are none so blind as those who will not see".

 

Thanks, lovely of you to say so. I see it as a bit of a workout for the brain.

[Ken Davison South Wales]

Just a thought for you all For better or worse we are in Iraq, do you think we should stay or with draw and what would be the effects of with drawing.

 

Sort Iraq first and then we will have a go at Afghanistan

[barry luxton]

Just a thought for you all For better or worse we are in Iraq, do you think we should stay or with draw and what would be the effects of with drawing.

 

Sort Iraq first and then we will have a go at Afghanistan

 

The government of iraq are debating to see if the forces are to remain, that will be interesting.

[Huge_Vitae]

The government of iraq are debating to see if the forces are to remain, that will be interesting.

Its a done deal.

 

Here